REPLAY #1: Ghostface Killah ‘Ironman’ vs Jay-Z ‘Reasonable Doubt’ (1996)

Oh yeah, replay, replay. Let's not.

Take the piss here. Replay, replay.

I will love it if we beat them. Love it.

Hello and welcome to Hip Hop World Cup, the podcast that pits

golden age hip hop tracks and albums against each other in a

contest to find the ultimate champions.

I'm your host, Annie Phillips, and you're listening to Hip Hop

World Cup Replay, a highlight show looking back at the best

matches from our first series. It's a bit like Match of the

Day, if Match of the Day only showed highlights of one match

that took place a few years ago. Anyway, the reason we're putting

these replay episodes out is that in our first series, we

crammed 8 whole albums into each episode.

That's a lot of discussion about hip hop, so we thought it would

be a good idea to single out and revisit some of the individual

battles from that first series. When you think about hip hop,

many people's minds go straight to the Wu Tang Clan.

For many people, they encapsulate hip hop, what hip

hop is. And one of the biggest success

stories to come out of the Wu Tang stable is Ghostface Killer.

And in this episode, we are going to take a look back at our

match between his album, his debut album Iron Man, which came

up against Jay-Z, Reasonable Doubt again, a debut album by

somebody who went on to become a massive, massive mega star in

the world of hip hop. So yeah, please revisit this

match with us. And, and joining me in the

studio to look back on it and provide some commentary is big

Ron Atkinson. Ron, how you doing?

I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your

silly machines as much as you like.

OK, well while Ron sorts himself out, we will get on with the

match. We're going to replay it here in

a minute. If you want to hear what Ron's

got to say about this Ghostface killer versus Jay-Z tussle,

please press the red button on your podcast app and you can

listen to that. Otherwise, yeah, please sit back

and enjoy this match from our 1996 episode.

Peace. Jay-Z versus.

Ghostface. Killer.

I mean what the clash of the Titans that is 2 of the biggest

names in hip hop Steve. I mean what What are your

thoughts on these two? Get the ball rolling.

Yeah, two big guns for me in this year.

I mean, so Iron Man for me is an absolute classic album.

It's dark, it's raw, it's butt. And I always say this, I prefer

those long playing albums that kind of reward you for listening

to from the beginning to the end.

I think it's got so many good raps, create beats, interesting

samples, create skits, as it's a really varied album, isn't it?

It doesn't kind of have a have a style of like, I don't know,

like even Links or or Liquid Sword.

It does kind of like skip between different types of

production. Yeah, I'd say.

I'd say it sounds a bit more polished.

It's quite a polished album for a RZA production produced album.

But if you go longer, maybe I'm just talking in terms of the

sound quality, but it's just it to me, this always feels quite

polished. Whereas previous Wu Tang albums,

you know, especially their debut was quite grubby, quite grimy.

This this is kind of. Upgraded his kit, hasn't he?

He's upgraded that Wu Tang money, he's comes in from the

output sales. He's put himself report himself

like an O2R digital mix or something like that.

And a Porter. Studio, Yeah.

But I, I think, I think it kind of sounds quite a lot like the

Raikkonen album, personally. Well, in terms of the beats and

the samples and stuff like. That, yeah, In terms of the

choice, I mean, I might be embarrassing myself kind of

saying this because I haven't kind of listened to the 2

back-to-back to there or anything, but I don't know, I

understand the kind of how they were released chronologically,

but were they necessarily recorded chronologically?

I wonder if like maybe this, this and Racor might have been

recorded at a similar time and they just broke up the 2

releases because they were quite similar.

Is that, I don't know if that's known or whether that's a you

think that might be a possibility?

Possibly. I don't know that, but they

definitely have Rappadonna Raekwon Go School featuring very

heavily, and they all, yeah, they're all three of them are in

their prime, aren't they? They're just definitely flow so

fantastically on so many of the tracks.

I think I'd I think I'd prefer Raekwon on this than I do on his

own. Album on Faster Blade.

Some of his best verses on this. Yeah, on Faster Blade that is

his best track ever and it's not even on his album and it's just

him rapping and that is just that.

One of my favourite tracks. I have whole album.

I like I. Also, like the lack of vanity

that he lets other rappers go first on a lot of tracks.

They take the 1st, 1st and things like that.

It's a very kind of democratic album, isn't it?

Yeah. Where, you know, they've got a

group of people. It's almost like a group.

It's like a Wu Tongue album, basically.

I like that about it. You never quite know who's going

to come in first. But I think I would agree with

you about the similarity to to Rake 1.

I think that Rake 1 was also, you know, for a Wu Tongue album

was. That's the one it's most similar

to. It doesn't sound anything like

To Cow, doesn't sound anything like liquid swords.

ODBS album had a kind of quite a unique sound as well, very

little sloppy, muddy lollapy kind of album.

Whereas, yeah, this and Raekwon, they're both kind of cut from a

similar cloth, I think, aren't they?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All three of them suit the beats

on here so well. They're just, they're just such

a nice fit. I think that's what makes the

album so good, and that the whole of the album is is greater

than the sum of its parts because of how well that works.

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it comes in, it comes in

strong with Iron Maiden. I love Iron Maiden.

Yeah, it's such a great start beat, heavy beat.

Like really, really good classic Rizza beat and that.

Dialogue at the beginning as. Well, yeah, I love yeah the

dialogue sample. Message for Smokey like that's

brilliant. And there's more of that.

I think it starts 260 as well, 260.

And that is like my other big one, Al Green sample, really

well used, but really it's just a loop and he likes his loops.

You know, there's probably a lot more going on than just a loop,

but well. I, I don't know what was that

that that that is the one that the thing with this album that I

was going to say about it is that it is quite a simple

production. Like there are just a lot more

just straight up loops on this like and This is why I wonder if

whether it was if they were recorded and released like at a

sequence because it goes Raekwon Jizzer and then this one and

liquid swords. I think it's just a much better,

more detailed, richer production.

There's more in it than kind of this, which is quite simple.

That being said, like the just talking about 260, which again

is is my favourite that our green sample is just, it's so

simple but so astonishingly done as well.

But I don't know, I think what he's done.

I think he just sampled the right channel because if you

listen to the original, there's like a much brighter string

sample in the left channel. So he's just sampled 1 channel

mono did it. I think it's pitched down just

by a semitone or something, maybe not even that, a little

bit of a philtre on it and that's about it.

And the bass is tweak the bass, but he's somehow taken that

sample. It makes it sound so menacing.

Yeah, I know. It's it's it's masterfully done.

It's really, it's one of those situations like, you know, it

sounds simple, but you're I couldn't do it, you know?

Yeah, I know. I don't know how you you would.

I think, I think, I think, I think you maybe could with this

because I think I've kind of described quite well what he's

done. But I reckon there's something.

Else going on, there's some. Special source happened there.

There might be, but it is quite simple.

But yeah, it just, it doesn't sound it, It, it, Yeah.

How he's just, he's got this knack of taking like a soul song

for making it sound like it's come from like, you know, a

horror film or something, which sounds really menacing and.

It's really done. I do.

There's loads of really great tracks on the I like winter

wars. As you said the faster blade is

great. I made in 260.

What's the one? Wildflower.

'S a nasty little track, isn't it?

Is it? Is it wildflower?

Is it all the sex stuff in it and about?

Women. Yeah, Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's cat is I thought that's it's Kami cat as

well. Kami I think Kami and Fish are

my favourite tracks. I think I've slightly.

Fishes, fishes. Monsters we think ghost, ghost.

The way Ghost wraps on that, yeah is amazing.

Yeah, just. Talking just absolute nonsense

though. Oh yeah, which is exactly.

No, I mean, like I would say the best lyrical performance on this

is on Daytona, which again is on the most simple beat you could

possibly imagine. Tiny little kind of half a bar

loop sort of thing. Yeah.

Nautilus. But the rapping is crazy, isn't

it? Ah, the rapping is incredible.

Or wait, what is it going on about?

It's just three of them Stream of consciousness, isn't it?

I think to me that's that is my favourite Raekwon verse.

It's love the way it kicks off about, you know, I'm not going

to kind of wrap it myself. We we all know it.

But I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to.

I'd do it too well, I think I wouldn't want to.

I wouldn't want to take this shine away from rape one.

But I wonder if, like those other two verses, Cappadora and

Ghostface are almost as good as it.

And I think Cappadonna really does himself proud on this.

The album generally speaks being on it with being on it with two

kind of really good rappers. Yeah, he holds his own.

I mean, Ghost Face, Ghost Face is considered by a lot of people

as the best rapper ever. Yeah.

And I think it's it's quite hard to argue with that.

Like he is incredible. He's consistent.

Consistently brilliant, yeah. No, but.

All I got is you. The way he raps on there is

amazing. If you go back and listen to

that, I mean it's. Really emotional.

Yeah, but he's quite heavily quoted from some of the stuff in

there as well. It's a really good wrap.

Really good wrap. Yeah, yeah.

I do find there, however, that after you kind of get past

Motherless Child, which I love, I don't think I was on the

Sunset Park soundtrack, yeah, as well, which is kind of when I

first heard it. Do kind of think it loses its

way slightly. And some of those tracks towards

the end are a little bit less memorable, let's say.

After smoke is clear is good. After smoke is clear is.

Good. I like Marvel.

I like the way it switches. What I'm saying about the

variety of the album, suddenly you get these different type of

tracks at the end, which kind of for me, I make it worth

listening to. I could have quite happily.

Ended it after Mother's Child and being perfectly honest with

you, the other ones towards the end, I found myself just

skipping through the amount of formality, but I listened to the

rest all the way through when I was reevaluating it.

And I think that tells you a lot about how I feel about those end

tracks. But you know, obviously if you

like a nice long player like you say Steve, then you're going to

I like. Those tracks, I think it's a

good, I think I think Marvel is a really good ending.

It's just. Yeah.

I just think, you know, you know that I wasn't the kind of the

biggest fan of Cuban links either.

I think you like, you'd make such a good single hour map.

If you'd combine those two best tracks from Raekwon's album and

Ghostface's album, you'd have an absolute.

That probably would be the best woos hang album then, I think,

yeah. So how do you think?

This album compares with Jay-Z then.

I mean, they're quite, you know, Yeah.

Different sonically. Different.

I think they're very different. And so, you know, where do you

even start to compare these two? Yeah, I mean, I don't have like

an awful lot to say about Jay-Z on this album, to be honest.

Like it was one of those ones where, yeah, I just wasn't

really checking for new artists at this point in my life, so

I've never formed an attachment to it.

I kind of a couple tracks I like on there, like Coming of Age I

think is really a really good story, really good beat, really

good story, great rapping. The back and forth on that track

is really good, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

With Memphis. Memphis, yeah.

And I know I can't take away how good a rapper Jay-Z is or his

kind of place in hip hop, but I know I've just, I've never been

the biggest fan really. I kind of, I like his stuff from

Blueprint onwards a bit more. I think I just, I remember him

kind of being on Top of the Pops doing hard knock life.

Like in 90. 7 And just thinking it was just so stupid.

What do? You think about the beats on

this album, Larry. I think they're just kind of all

right for me personally, I can see sort of why people would

really rate the album. But no, yeah, it's just all a

bit, kind of. Lots of people say this.

Is to me really. Lots of people say this is his

best produced album and I think it's got, it's got some great

samples and I think it's got some really well chosen samples.

I think it's it's really, it's of its time, yeah.

I think, you know, if I had never deviated away from hip

hop, if, if I'd still liked it and been checking for new

artists as much as I was, you know, a year or two previous, I

kind of fancy that I would really like this album and I

would kind of have it as one of my favourites, but but I didn't

and I don't. Yeah, but for me, this is a

classic album. I when this when I first got

this album, I was so excited. I just just listened to it

constantly. I think Danny, you, you, I think

you were probably into this album when it first came out.

I mean, I really, I was so excited about this album coming

out. I was first introduced to him on

Can I Get Open by Original Flavour, which came out I think

in 93 and his verse on that. I just absolutely loved it.

And I was looking forward to him releasing to his own material.

And yeah, eventually this came out really, really excited when

it came out. You know, we knew kind of dead

presidents already. And and then and then, yeah, it

came in We Can't Knock the Hustle with Mary J Blige, who I

also liked around that time, like with the album My Life and

which was in 94 and. It just had all the.

Right elements. I think a lot of what I love

about it was starting with the beats is that they use a lot of

really great soul samples, really great recognisable

samples like tracks that I actually love as well, just to

listen to in their own right. I'm like you say, coming of age

uses inside. You, but inside you, Yeah.

It's just and Brooklyn's finest uses Ohio Players.

Yeah. What's the politics as usual is

the Stylistics Hurry up this way again Sample.

And that is one of my favourite soul songs.

So. And it was just flipped so well

on this. I mean, I absolutely love what

they did on that. Track is there Like is there a

Bo Hannon sample on this? Yeah, that's what is it,

Cashmere. Cashmere thoughts.

Yeah. But the thing, just the thing

that the Sam does well done is doesn't just use samples.

Well, it also takes great quotable hip hop samples.

And in almost every single track it's quoting like Niles or

somebody famous. And I think actually he's put, I

think they put a lot of thought into doing that.

Yeah. And I yeah.

Well, in terms of like the hooks and stuff and the samples of

other rappers and stuff on the hooks, yeah, I think it's a good

nowhere more so than the Evils, which is I think I was always

perhaps my favourite on here, the Primo 1, you know, using the

Snoop Doggy Dog sample on on the chorus and things like that.

I thought I was really well done.

That is one that is one of DJ Premier's best beats, I think.

It's a hard beat. It's a hard beat, really good

beat, memorable beat as well. I just, I just think the beat, I

think Jay-Z flow on this. His his rhymes.

Schemes are really clever, like this is the only Jay-Z on my own

and the only one I've ever heard.

You know, obviously I've heard his later singles, but I just,

I, this is the only Jay-Z album I've ever, you know, I've got.

And I just think this is so I think it's masterful the way he

rhymes on these, on these tracks. 9 to 5 is how you

survive so many classic lines on it.

Yeah. So I just.

Yeah, I mean it's. Going to be a tricky 1 to vote

on. I think, boys, I think that's

pretty much what we're what we're learning here.

Should we do it? Should we go for it?

Yeah, just do it. Right, Steve, let's start with

you. Which one are you going for?

Are you voting for? So love Jay-Z classic album but

I just think Ghostface Killer is absolute classic.

I would rather listen to that all day.

I could listen to it non-stop forever.

So Iron Man for me. Cool, right?

Larry, what are you voting for? Yeah, I mean, Ghostface Killer

isn't quite the album that I always imagined.

It was too much filler on there. But that being said, I wouldn't

much rather listen to this any any day of the week than Jay-Z.

OK, cool. Well, OK, it's a bit of a sort

of academic. I'm going to go for Jay-Z, I

think. I think it was always an album.

I much preferred listening to it just.

It's more your kind, it's more your kind of sound, I think,

isn't it? Absolutely.

I've nailed it there. Nailed it there.

Yeah. It's just my my sound palette

that I loved around the time. Smooth soul samples and things

like that. So yeah, yeah, JC gets my vote,

but. That doesn't stop.

Ghostface Killer winning our first semi final 2 to one.

Get on. That's it.

I hope you enjoyed the epic battle.

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see you for our next replay. Peace.