SHOOTOUT 5: Nas vs Jay-Z

Yeah, my name's Overdose. I'm calling from Eastbourne.

Hello and welcome to Hip Hop World Cup Shootout, the podcast

that pits Golden Age rappers and producers against each other to

find the ultimate champions. I'm your host, Danny Phillips,

and as usual, I'm joined by the man who thought Havoc and

Prodigy were the new gladiators, Steve Hitchcock.

What? Are they not?

And and the man who thought Positive K was a breakfast

cereal? James Luskill.

Delicious. Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Good to see you both again after

a short hiatus. How are you both?

Yeah, all good. Been up to lots of hip hop

things I imagine. Well yeah, and I've been trying

to persuade you 2 to come to some hip hop events, but you've

both been too lazy. So I think Alistair should know

your don't know armchair hip hop fans rather than frontline

frontliners. Activists too old, too lazy?

Yeah, nice, too short. Anyway, this podcast is brought

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out. Yeah, if you can, before we

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Anyway, we're coming to you live from Kenilworth Rd, home of

Luton Town, the venue for our latest verses shoot out between

Nass and Jay-Z 2 legendary New York MCS who blend lyrical

brilliance with cultural influence that changed hip hop

forever. They also turn their personal

rivalry into one of hip hop's most iconic beefs, leaving

behind classic records and timeless verses.

So, Larry, this was your choice. Yeah.

Do you want to tell us why you chose it?

Yeah. I mean, it just it seemed like

an obvious kind of 1 to do, but given their like famous rivalry

and just, you know, two of the most iconic or yeah, I mean,

who's more iconic than like than these two rappers from this era?

I mean, like, to be fair, like Jay-Z, actually, he came up a

little bit later, didn't he? Like, right at the tail end of

the golden kind of era, Yeah. And he's more of a kind of 2000s

rapper. I I would kind of think of him

as I think. He missed his his calling.

If he were just a bit earlier, I think even bigger.

Yeah, I mean, well, can you get any bigger than Jay-Z really?

To to be, to be fair. Mega Star It's the closest to a

rap mega star we've ever had. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. But I've never, I've never been.

I don't know, it might be a bit early for me to say this, but I,

I think just, I think he's the least likeable, one of the least

likeable rappers. Jay-Z.

Jay-Z. Yeah.

Just as a personality. I don't.

There's something about him. He's so.

Arrogant, isn't. He's very arrogant, very

confident of himself. And I know that's kind of all

rappers are, but he he's a little bit too much that what I

think he means it. Yeah, exactly.

Doesn't he? To be fair.

He does, but he does. I don't know, there's just

something about his. He just seems a bit bit sly.

Don't think we could ignore his of the field antics.

Well, yeah, he's a he's, what do you mean, like naughty stuff?

What do you mean? Oh, just gonna say he's like a

one man Empire, isn't he? Before you close, you've got the

whole thing. He's a businessman.

He's a. Well, yeah, what is Mogul?

Yeah. Incredible.

Yeah, incredible. But yeah, he's a naughty.

He's a naughty but like on like, but in, in terms of that kind of

stuff they like on his one of the tracks that I, I was going

to kind of select a track from 444, which is his album from, I

don't know, about 6-7 years ago, something like that.

And there's a track on it called the story of OJ, which I really

like. But he's stuff that he talks

about on there about buying like like investing in like really

expensive art, like for the sake of making money from it and

buying buildings in Brooklyn instead.

I just, I find it really distasteful that kind of stuff.

Just like how I'd like How much money and do you need?

It just there's a slick grip track track.

Like that about being a landlord.

Yeah, we know. What you're rapping about that?

Yeah, I know it's like very indicative of our own, but in

terms of, you know, MCS, Jay-Z, NARS doesn't get much bigger

than that exactly. Great, great pair of rappers to

put up against. But I but I think like it might

shock our listeners to know that we like, I don't know how

purposefully we did it, but we haven't gone for the obvious

tracks, especially from Nas a. 100% like I, I.

Personally, I, you know, I could have chosen loads of tracks from

Millmatic, but I specifically didn't want to include anything

from that album just because it's like, you know, how often

can, how much can you talk about that stuff?

Well, yeah, there is, there is that and also it's the other

element if that we've covered a lot of the tracks of filmatic

and other more obvious Nas tracks in previous episodes.

And as you know, we've got a rule.

Yep, they cut, you know, that certain songs are cup tied if

we've spoken about. So we we've gone off, we've gone

off peace haven't we've chosen ones that perhaps haven't been

talked about as much. So yeah, you're absolutely

right, Larry. Go just pick on two things

though, because I think the first like a lot, a lot of their

content. They both produce loads and

loads of albums. Like like Jay-Z is 18 for Jay-Z

he's saying no and Nas is like no.

No, you said Nas is 18. Yeah, Nas is 18.

Jay-Z is 13, but a lot of that content is after the golden age.

Yeah. So really Nas, Nas has got

probably a couple of albums that we would have, we'd have.

Been Nas brings stuff out pretty much every year.

That was an age he's very. He's prolific, so I think this

actually makes this concept matter more difficult for us

than we realise. Because my relationship with Nas

kind of begins and ends well, begins with Illmatic and ends

with, it was written, as you know, I kind of, I didn't really

follow those later albums as you went into the 2000s.

So that is kind of reflected in my choices.

But also it meant I was introduced to a lot of Nas and

Jay-Z songs I didn't necessarily know before.

Yeah. So I was kind of coming like

this with the cold air. So yeah.

Which might kind of affect what? Yeah.

If we'd have picked all the songs from Romantic, they'd have

probably won the Shootout 5. Nil.

Yeah, it wouldn't. Have been fair and.

Also, it gives us a chance to talk about some of those more

obscure ones that perhaps you know, I.

Think there's some really good links to some really random

stuff that we can get into. Yeah, OK.

Sorry, I should just point out that we had a cease and desist

from the BCS legal team over our time for questions.

Yeah, segments we have abandoned that, right, Okay, yeah, we

couldn't do that in this episode, I'm afraid.

So any of our listeners are looking forward to that,

particularly to apologise. Yeah, Steve, I'll come to you.

Just a final point. Where do you think this match

will be won and lost? Where do you think what's the

key battleground for this one? I'm going to, I'm going to

answer that slightly differently in terms of like when I went

into this, I had I only had one rapper in my head that I thought

was going to win. And and it it turns out in my

mind, I've completely changed my opinion of who I think is, is

the is the better rapper. So I think I'm going to like,

I'm going to hold back a little a little bit on on that until

we're going to get into some tracks.

But yeah, they're both, I think they're both absolutely giant

rappers. I think they both think they're

probably the greatest all time. I personally don't think either

of them are, but they are. They're definitely up there.

I mean, like we were saying earlier, like Jay-Z and probably

Doctor Dre are the 2 like biggest, I don't know names,

biggest names in in in hip hop, but everyone knows about Nas,

Nas as well. So, so yeah, I think, I think

I'll kind of unpack a bit more of my thoughts around around

both of those two that's. A bit of a funny 1 isn't he?

In that he is such a giant like for the for the heads, Yeah, but

he's nowhere near as like no like the like the average person

on the street who isn't into hip hop probably hasn't heard of

him. Whereas Jay-Z is a household.

Yeah, he's Jay-Z has way more crossover successes and he's

kind of like conquered. He he still has that credibility

and the critical acclaim of the of, of people who know they're

hip hop as. Well, and also he's the benefit

of, you know, being with Beyoncé as well.

Kind of wouldn't have heard that.

Definitely hasn't hurt. Hasn't.

Taken the game. Yeah, yeah, 100% right.

Before we get this shootout underway, here's a quick run

through of the rules, ladies and.

Gentlemen. In our Shootout Versus episodes,

we pick 2 hip hop producers or rappers to compete against each

other and find out which is the winner.

We select 5 tracks to represent each side.

Those 5 tracks include one personal pick from each host,

while the other two tracks are decided between us.

They can be from any era as long as the artist or producer came

to prominence in the 1990s, but they can't be songs we've

already discussed on our Dream Team or playoff episodes.

Essentially, they've been cup tied during the shootout.

We pick the tracks at random to face each other, discuss them

and decide which is the winner using the three man vote.

It's the best of five. Whichever side scores the most

wins, so let the shootout commence.

We are the world's only podcast monitored by VAR technology, but

annoyingly FIFA hasn't told me who's on the panel today.

I normally get a sheet of paper from the press office, which

hasn't happened. So let's see who's there.

Hello referee one. How are you?

Thank you very much lads see you later.

That's what I can see now obviously in the panel.

We've also got he definitely smashed it Richard Keyes self

there apparently and he's. All going to be disgraced it.

Looks like it. Should we see if we can get full

house? Number three, OK, we're free.

Number three, who's up there in the panel?

I'm very, very well. Thank you.

That's Chris Waddle. I didn't actually ask how you

were, Chris, but never mind. So Chris Waddle, Ron Atkinson

and Richard Keyes. Chris Waddle, as far as I'm

aware, not disgraced he's going. Clean.

Not yet. Not clean yet, do you know?

Something about him? No, no, no.

But I'm sure there's something lurking in the closet.

Allegedly. Anyway, without further ado,

let's crack on with a shootout. We have 5 NARS tracks which are

as follows, Locomotive White Label, Come Get Me one-on-one

and It Ain't Hard to Tell remix. And we also have 5 Jay-Z tracks.

We have Never Change, Kingdom Come Politics as usual, Dead

Presidents 2 and public Service Announcement.

That is the Danger Mouse remix and my.

Right. From The Grey Album The Grey

Album version which. We'll talk more about.

Brilliant. I've put the the the list of the

tracks in the episode description as well as a link to

a Spotify playlist for your listening pleasure, so do check

that out. But we need to crack on with it.

Steve, can you give me a number between 1:00 and 5:00?

Let's go for five, please. That is, it ain't hard to tell.

Remix and Larry give me a a number between 6:00 and 10:00.

Three sorry 6 and 10/7. 7:00 So that is Kingdom come.

So this is it ain't hard to tell remix versus Kingdom come.

That's Here's what they sound like.

Hard to tell. I excel, then prevail.

The mic is contacted. I attract clientele.

My mic check is life or death. Breathing a sniper's breath.

I exhale, But you almost smoke a Buddha through righteous steps

deep like to shine and sparkle like a diamond sneaker, Uzi.

I'm so involved, I'm showing close.

I'm so in charge. I'm CEO and yeah, going God, I'm

so indebted. I should have been getting

selling This is knowing my heart now.

I'm so enlightened. I'm like growing the.

Top OK, it ain't hard to tell versus Kingdom come who chose

Kingdom come whose choice was that I did that's you love you

want to start start us off. Yeah, so I just basically love

it. It's all about the music on this

one for me. And I think you'll you'll either

love it or hate it. I love it.

I think just the way that Just Blaze flips that sample, which

is Super Freak by Rick James is just incredible.

I think it would it would be good anyway, But the fact that

he used it after it was used by MC Hammer on like one of the

biggest hip hop tracks of all time in in the popular eye and

to make it just sound fresh. I I think it's just absolutely

genius. Like he he's such like just

blaze, such a pioneer of just that really like intricate way

of chopping samples and replaying them.

Like I was watching earlier on YouTube, like someone doing like

a recreation of it on the MPC. And it's no kind of more

astonishing than any of those other type of ones.

But I just I'm, I'm, I'm just so kind of impressed by when I see

people doing that on the MPCI was never able to do that kind

of thing. And yeah, it just, it just

sounds really energetic and. Can I, can I say love it?

So I I think I was completely stupid.

So until I like properly listen to this through.

And then there's there's the line that Jay-Z says had a had a

dust off the hammer dance. Can't touch it.

So I was like, yeah, yeah, wait a minute.

This is a Rick. This is Rick Jay.

Yeah, yeah. It took me a while.

It took me a while to realise though.

Really. It did.

Yeah. So good.

It is. There are certain sounds in this

and that bit you can hear that you suddenly can't.

I know that. And then you realise what it is.

Got it. Yeah, Yeah.

And but I think it's a ballsy move to sample.

I do. I think it's really.

Yeah, really good. My my knowledge of just plays as

a producer is fairly limited. I know a few few of them, but

yeah, he's got a very big kind of grand sound production style.

It's horns. It's big, sort of.

They're almost like anthems. Fanfares as.

Do you know what I was kind of, I was trying to look up her.

I asked like one of these AI kind of stupid things about kind

of what was he, how innovative was he?

Because I was trying to think when did that kind of chopping

style come about and was he responsible for it?

And one of the answers that he was that he makes kind of like

almost like stadium wrap, which I think is exactly what your.

Stadium wrap, Yeah. And they sort of drum rolls and

yeah, yeah. They're big.

They're announced. Sorry, big.

Yeah. So Steve, are you Kingdom coming

or your Kingdom going? No, I love this.

I really, I already like it. It's it's hard for me to say it

because I think like that just plays sound like late 90s and

Jay-Z is a sound I didn't like at the time because it was just

too polished. And I think if you compare like

enough in the entire entirety of this podcast, Jay-Z to Naz, Naz

production is typically like more gritty New York boom bap

sound, whereas Jay-Z production is is more polished stadium

pleasing with a bit of, you know, this can crossover and

please, please more people. But I'm older now.

I'm a bit more mature and a bit more laid back.

So I really like this. I looked at the credits in this

Doctor Dre's got a mixing credit on this.

Is he really. Yeah.

Which I thought was, was was really interesting.

I think that, you know, again, maybe that's why it sounds,

sounds so good. Yeah.

So yeah, it's it's catchy, really catchy.

It's really catchy. Isn't it?

Yeah. And I think what you get in

pretty much every Jay-Z track is in his just bragging or

something. Yeah.

And he's using an interesting metaphor here about from the

Bible, isn't he? Basically so.

He's saying like, not only NYC, I'm hip hop saviour, which is,

yeah, pushing it a little bit I think.

But I mean, to be fair, when did this album come out?

It was quite. 2006. 2006, is that okay?

So yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's peak

then, isn't he? Yes, that's he's absolutely

smashing it. So yeah, really like this track.

Yeah, I don't have a lot more to add, to be honest with you.

That's what I said about, you know, just Blaze and everything.

It's a it's a nice it's a nice flipper, super freak.

And yeah, I don't I don't mind it, don't mind it at all,

despite being, you know, in the era of hip hop where I wasn't

really listening as much. But it's it's pretty good.

So let's switch over then to the IT Ain't Hard to Tell remix.

This was my choice, yes. Now, I've got a bit of a hot

take here and I might have said it on this podcast before, but I

think it ain't hard to tell the music.

The beat is one of the most overrated beats in hip hop.

I think it's, I think it's a really weak beat.

I think it's really weak. It's the human nature sample.

The drums just don't knock for me.

This is like a dagger. I know.

It's my favourite track of filmatic.

And that's why it's a hot take. However, the lyrics, you know,

are timeless, iconic. It ain't hard to tell.

It's just up there. It's like, you know, everybody

knows the words. It's amazing.

So when I discovered this remix, it's a large professor remix, I

was delighted because it took the song into an area that I

could finally like it. It matched a beat that I love

with lyrics that I love. And I finally so I much, much

prefer this to the original. I think it's vastly superior.

I do not expect either of you or many, many people out there in

the world of hip hop to agree with me.

So this is on the Illmatic 2020 year anniversary and wasn't.

It it was I, I had it on the silly single of it.

Hard to tell. So it's it was actually remixed

by large professors. So have you been living with

this track all of. All of these years since I see

OK Illmatic era right so so yeah, had it on the E single.

I just love the drums is one of them.

He's chopped up one of my favourite loops that the what

not sample mentioned many times favoured by the beat miners.

They love that that break and yeah, I just love it Had to talk

about it because I I haven't heard many people ever talk

about this remix. Everybody's so kind of enamoured

and wowed and all it ain't hard to tell is I don't agree.

Why? Why did he mess with?

It I think it's, I think it's a really weak beat.

Well, I mean, I'm somewhere in between those two positions.

I think it's I don't hate, I don't dislike the original, but

I think it is the worst track on Illmatic that's rather than the

best one. That's is that.

That's not. We've argued.

We've argued this. Before we have most people would

say represent no one time for your mind.

That's generally regarded to be the weakest track on there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's.

Definitely, it's definitely AB tier from that album.

But for me, yeah, I I think it ain't hard to tell.

It's it's probably the the weakest for me, although I do

still, I do still like it. But I understand your criticisms

of it. Yeah.

And As for this track, I haven't haven't heard it until, you

know, doing this research and I'll just say it's fine.

Yeah, I think the beat, the beat actually does fit the the lyrics

really well. It's actually it's in the right

key. Yeah.

Which like, not like. That's one of the kind of areas

that remixes can fall down on sometimes, I think.

Matching the kind of the tambour of the, the voice, the.

Voice. Yeah, it's it's the right key

for the voice. And yeah, yeah, it's just, it's,

it's, it's a nice kind of smooth beat.

I think objectively it's probably on at least on par with

the original. I'll take that.

How about? Them, I know the other one, I do

prefer the other one and I can never with remixes, especially

if I don't listen to them both contemporaneously and I only

kind of come to them later. I can never dislodge the

original. There's always like a book

incongruence. It's hard, isn't it?

Just very, very, very, very quickly.

I want to come in the the the the sample that the Bismarck E

sample. He takes the bit Nas, Nas, Nas.

He's the king of this going that.

I think that's really clever. He's identified that syllable

that sounded like Nas and yeah, looped.

I always thought that was quite clever.

Sorry, that's. Smart Yeah yeah, the the just

going to come in on the remix thing is so the there's there's

another track we're going to get to on the podcast where we talk

about National Dumas, which was a kind of a a complete remix

album of National Damas by Nas and there's some really good

there's a really good remix on there which I don't I'm not

going to look to you here, Danny.

We'll look to you Larry of this track.

It ain't hard to tell over saliva.

I don't know if you've heard it, but it's like.

No, I mean, I'd probably, I'd know the beat if I heard it, I'd

expect. It's just brilliant.

So I think there's a better remix than this one.

If you kind of like dig into some other places and like I

don't, I don't mind a remix. I think there's lots of remixes

that are pretty good, but the just sticking with Nas for a

bit. Have you 2 also heard the the

Elmatic remix of Illmatic by Elsie?

I have. I love that album.

It's good. It's fantastic.

It's good. Yeah.

It's one of the. I think I've got it.

Might have been told about it by you.

Yeah. And there's some really kind of

big jazzy reproductions of the tracks on Elmatic.

Rings a bell now that you bring it up, but I can't bring it.

I can't bring it to mind, but I've definitely heard it and

enjoyed it at the time I. Think it's definitely worth,

yeah, going back and listening to so.

And I've got one more point on this track before we before we

move on. It's a shame this tracks come

out first for Nas because for me, like lyrically, you already

said this. He is like unbelievable on this

track. Everything just fits and flows.

And I don't think he ever, ever reaches that peak on any other

album since. And his rap style in this is

quite it's just like syllable perfect.

It just sounds great. And in most of the tracks, and

certainly some of the ones we'll listen to this afternoon, he's

quite like that staccato flow. It's quite like, it's very

similar. It's like did it, whereas Jay-Z

is able to kind of like change his flow up and down, slow,

fast. And so it's just disappointing

to me that that Nas, I don't know, it's become a bit samey in

the way that he raps apart from on automatic where he's just

faultless. Interesting.

So pick up some of the tracks. What do you think of this track

then? Do you think this is?

AI just love the original so I just don't think it should have

messed with. That's bang out of bang out of

order. Some people just too hard to

please. That's bang out of order.

OK, well, that's fair enough. That's fair enough.

So let's vote. What did you give Kingdom Come

boys in terms of our true scores, which is the sort of the

arbiter of what's good and what's bad in the hip hop world?

Where are we? Let me, let me see.

I think I gave it a 4A4. Yeah, 4, definitely strong four.

Yeah, I gave it 3, not quite hitting as much for me and in

terms of and it hard to tell, I gave that four, obviously not a

five, it's not quite like amazing, but it's yeah, you

know, I gave it a three. Three.

Yeah, I gave it a strong three. So with all those numbers taken

into consideration, what are we going to vote for?

Kingdom come for me. Kingdom Come Barry I.

Mean for me I chose it and I think it's better.

Interesting. Yeah, No, absolutely.

I I wouldn't have expected anything else, but I'm my vote's

going for it. Hard to tell as it was my choice

so Kingdom come gets one of these.

Back of the net. And he sticks the penalty into

the top right. Hand, I wonder, do you know

anything about the Nas remix? Yeah.

Was there ever a question of that remix being quote unquote

the original on the album? Because I know with some tracks

they were remixed later in the day.

Isn't? Isn't there another more

original version of this? I'm sure I've looked at this.

I don't know the story. I won't pretend to know the

story of that one. There is represent is the one

off Illmatic. Represent is the one.

Version yeah, and which I've heard and it's nowhere near as

good. And then they Yeah, it was.

The remix is on the. That's it.

So the story behind that is that Premiere heard other tracks that

were on the album and knew that he had to do something a bit

more special. So I just wondered if this was

another kind of sort of instance of I.

Don't believe so. I don't believe so.

But if you're out, yeah, get in touch if you know better, dear

listeners. OK, so that's one nil to Jay-Z.

We're going to move on now to the second match.

Steve, give me a different number between 1:00. 4 please.

Five, that is one-on-one, that's my choice.

And Larry, another one between 6:00 and 10:00, six, which is

never change. So that's one-on-one versus

never change. This is what they sound like.

Imagine this, no guns, no knife. It's a one-on-one.

So now we got to fight, son. Imagine this.

No gun, no knife. It's a one-on-one.

Now we got to fight. Yeah, imagine that no gun, no

knife, it's a one-on-one. Now we got to.

Free all fish better teach you folk.

Give him money to eat. The next week he's broke.

Just when you sleep he's reaching for your throat.

Word on the street you reap what you sow not out of love.

Love for the game. Rock family first we.

Never. OK.

So that's one-on-one versus never changed. one-on-one was my

choice. So, Steve, tell me why you don't

like it. Could you just see my like the

expression as you're playing? I could.

The main, I guess there's two things.

So first of all is obviously, I only knew this track existed

when you suggested for this podcast like Blimey, this is a

blind. That's not like us here in a

track for the first time. So that's the first thing.

But then I don't know, I'm sure you've both messed around with

AI these days. And it like if someone could

manufacture a track using AI and say like can you produce a 1994

track, make it sound like Nas, make it have like an R&B hook,

This is what it would sound like.

All right, but that doesn't mean it's not good.

It does. It's terrible.

It's I mean, Nas, it's like going back again.

This is like AI Nas just repetitive, just churning out

like his consistent, like Ryan Patton.

He's got a typical New York beat, R&B hook, rapping about

having a fair fight. I don't know.

Nothing you've said there is. There's nothing that's bad about

ever going to make me want to listen to the track ever again,

right? Why do you like it?

Was it just not a border? No, and I'll tell you why I like

it. It's because, well, obviously I

like more of a soulful approach to my hip hop.

So this is a very soulful. I love those.

The piano chords, everything about it just appeals to me.

The beat, the chords, everything.

I don't mind an R&B flavoured hook, I think it's quite nice.

Just to ensure you that I think this is actually just like a bit

of PTSD, because on, on some of NASA's outputs, the R&B stuff

that he does really does put me off.

Yeah. He's got a lot of tracks from in

the, you know, 2000s. Know why are you doing that?

It does. It kind of has.

I mean, this came out in 94 on the Street Fighter soundtrack,

which which is a kind of, I believe is a quite an underrated

soundtrack. There's some bangers on there.

It's got other tracks on there like Street Soldier by Paris.

It's got an ice cube track on there, the far side.

It's got some really, really good stuff on there, but this

one just really, really appealed to me.

Is this the best track in your opinion on that on the album?

It's, I think it's the one I like the most.

It's between this and St Soldier.

Very nice. But I, I really, it really

appeals to me because, you know, I like stuff that's soulful.

The chords are really soulful. I like it.

You know, I'm a bit of a sucker for an R&B hook and it's just,

it's just really good. I think it's a bit of a yeah,

the precursor to it. The IT was written as that we

started to get, you know, with the R&B vocals and things like

that. If Nars wasn't rapping this is

someone completely random. It'd be even worse.

I mean, it's he's the only. But he does, he does, you know,

he does a great job on it. I think the subject matter is

really great. He imagines a world where people

don't use guns and knives and you just, you know, you just

have a fistfights on the street, which is somewhere that we all

want to be. I just think, I think it's a

really nice soulful head nodder. The drums are crunchy.

It really appeals to me and the reason why I chose it.

Not only do I really like it, it's just an obscure NARS track

that not a lot of people ever talk.

About. No, never came out in the same

year as Illmatic. Yeah.

And I just think it's a really, really good, good NARS tracker.

There's great on it. He's telling stories.

He's imagining this sort of. To be fair, he's more poetic and

a better storyteller probably than Jay-Z.

Jay-Z is more of a kind of a hustler.

Yeah. But his flow on it reminds me of

Illmatic. It reminds me of that Nas.

It's on Illmatic. It's kind.

Of I think it's definitely sort of when you compare it to his,

you know, his age, ETS stuff from 94.

This is. This was left on the cutting

floor, isn't it? It's probably picked up.

You have to think it's maybe something that was from the

cutting floor and there was just a nice check involved for it.

I'm not going. To pretend, but it's not a bad

track, but it's yeah, yeah. I'm not going to pretend it's as

good as anything on Illmatic, and I'm not going to pretend

it's the best track ever made. I'm just saying it's, I think

there's a really, there's a lot going for it and you can at

least understand why I like it because it's right on my street.

I think it's brilliant. You've got it on the podcast.

I think it's it's. I'd have to know a bit more

about the like the backgrounds to it being like how they

managed to talk him into being on it.

Like I seem to remember, I think Dave, friend of the show, Dave

had this CD because we, like me and him, were like massive

Street Fighter fans. And so combined Street Fighter

with hip hop. Like, that's an album you want

to get. And I definitely remember, like,

that Paris track, The Street Soldier being on all the mixed

on all our mixtapes at the time. Yeah.

And there's an Ice Cube track on there as well, which is kind of

all right. Yeah, it's not bad.

I can't remember what it's called now, but yeah, there's an

ice cube one. There's a there's a track on it

by Ahmad from Back in the Day fame.

Yeah, yeah. What's it called?

Who's on next or something? There are some.

It's really so. Far something there.

There are some good tracks on it actually.

But I, I just thought this was a really, really, it's good.

It's a bit of. Attention definitely yeah, 100%

it was a real coup for that soundtrack to get an yeah that's

especially cause easy blazing hot in 94 yeah yeah.

And I'm surprised. I think there's got to be a nice

big fat check. Or, or whether he thought to

himself, because, I mean, Street Fighter, the film was a massive

flop. Yeah.

But maybe he was thinking, oh, this is going to be it's like

one of the biggest properties in entertainment.

This could be a really big film. I mean, it has I John Corey Van

Damme and Kyle Minogue in it. How can you fail exactly?

I just think I'm surprised that more people don't talk about

this track because it's it was in, I think just the.

I think the reason be. Obscure of it.

Don't say because it's shit, because it's not.

It's not. Exactly what I was going to.

Say, I think like you have to go out of your way to find it as

well. It's not on.

It's not on Spotify, it's not on like you have to.

You have to go looking for it basically and know it's there.

Obscure producers as well. Look that up.

I didn't didn't note it, but not well so.

Chris, like, is it Chris? Something should have done more

research, really. But yeah, it's he's not a well

known producer. All right, then let's move on to

the other track, which is never changed by Jay-Z.

Larry, this was your choice. Yeah.

Do you want to get us get us going on this?

Yeah. So, yeah, so this is this is my

Jay-Z album, basically the blueprint.

I never got into reasonable doubt at the time because it was

96 and I wasn't massively kind of checking for hip hop at the

time. And subsequent to that, I just,

I had a bit of a bad kind of a feeling about Jay-Z, Like I, I

think mainly because I remember him doing hard knock life on

like Top of the Pops. I just thought this is just the

she's just, I just, I hate it. I hated it.

So he was never someone that I was checking out for, and I

mean, God knows why I bought this album actually, because

this was right at the height of me being like balls deepened,

like deaf jugs, stuff like the like.

It was critically acclaimed. I mean, yeah, it probably is the

Jeep Jay-Z album. Yeah, but I'm just wondering how

I got into it because like, this was the year when like the Cold

Vein came out and Aesop broke Labour Days and I was just so

into that kind of style of music.

It must, I guess it must be that, that it had such good

reviews at the time because, yeah, that was how you judged

your purchases back then. Like you would see written

reviews of things and go out and buy it.

I mean, maybe there was a single or something that I liked at the

time. But yeah, it's such a kind of,

it's not a blingy kind of, it's not a shiny suit kind of era

album, but it's just a surprise that I was listening to it

basically. But the reason I chose this one,

I just kind of thought it would. It's a, it's a nice beat.

And I thought it's one that both of you could potentially like,

like Danny, I kind of had you in mind, like with like the sort of

soulful, like the Kanye West sample.

No, I appreciate that. I think this album but little

bit of a, you know, trivial trivia.

This album came out on 9/11, did it 9th of November.

No actually, no actual 911. It came out on SO.

That must have affected kind of launch and stuff.

I think it would. Presumably, I mean, I think it

was still an absolutely massive album, but yeah, it it wouldn't

have helped it at the time, would it?

But yeah, it's just it's just a nice, just a nice sounding

track. And I think what's 1 of the

things that was especially about this album at the time and maybe

why I liked it, is that after that whole kind of keyboard

beats era in hip hop that I just detest this was a return to

samples. And I think it was because Jay-Z

had so much and Rockefeller had so much money behind them, they

could afford to clear like whatever samples they want.

Hence by their sampling like the Doors and people just like, I

don't know who this is that he sampled off hand, but it's just

a bit more kind of return to proper sort of hip hop.

It's not boom bappy, but it's. No, it's of his time, but it's

still the. Album is really of his time.

It's a it's a little bit of a kind of illmatic in the he had

like all of the hot producers of the time or not even hot

producers. I I think this album is what

kind of gave like Kanye West and just Blaze their break.

Yeah. And there's sort of other other

kind, but but there's about sort of four core producers on this

album and it that give it its kind of flavour.

That that was that's the interesting thing for me for

this album is that is that you, if you've seen the Kanye

documentary, like how hard he had to work to kind of get get

get, you know, made as a rapper and his his production was was

really what got him there. And then he couldn't be ignored

any any longer. That's that documentary's

amazing. It's amazing.

But Jay-Z, like, literally ignores him, like walks past him

and just like doesn't give him the time of day.

And he's producing all these amazing tracks for him.

And like, looking back now at this album and you think, yeah,

you can as soon as as soon as this track comes on, you're

like, this is probably a Kanye track.

Yeah, it. Does sound like a Kanye track.

There are a few tracks I could have.

There was Ain't no Love in the heart of the City, I think it's

called. That's the other one that I

could have, could have easily chosen, yeah.

But it isn't. So I'm kind of with you here in

terms of it's an iconic album. You cannot ignore it, but it's

too. It's got too much mainstream.

There is some. There is, there is quite a lot

of poppy crossover stuff in it, yeah.

Some, not all, of which I like, some of which I do really like,

yeah. Yeah, but I, I, I.

Timberland. That's the other one I was

thinking. Of I've called that on there.

Yeah, yeah, it's a mass when you look back in time, I think.

Yeah. This is a big.

This is a big album, yeah. Yeah, massive so.

What do you think about this this track, Steve?

Yeah, yeah, I like it. I mean, I don't have anything

more to add more. I already said like just yeah, I

love, love the Kanye beat. And you know, it's a it's it's a

cat is a catchy tune, isn't it? It it's it's nice.

Kanye on the chorus as well, doing a catchy little I presume

he is anyway. Sounds like him doing a catchy

little kind of thing, which is just his MO, isn't it?

Yeah, no, it's a nice tune. I really like it.

It's a classic Kanye production. It's got all his hallmarks of

the sort of the soulful samples and, you know, and Jay-Z is

really good on it. I think he's, you know, it's

just exactly what you expect from that era of Jay-Z.

Yeah. Well, again, it's like I'm now

I'm never going to change. This is this is me.

But I do think it's painful to remind yourself of the fact that

Kanye was so good before he went off the rails.

And this era of Kanye, and certainly with his own material,

College Dropout and all that, Yeah.

He was a really good producer, doing really good.

Yeah. Music and production he's.

Definitely a musical genius, isn't he?

Definitely, yeah. But it's similar to to Jay-Z.

It's hard to like him, yeah, just because of his.

So I think this might be a bit of a foregone conclusion, but

let's put these two to the vote. It's one-on-one versus never

change. I'm going to say yeah, my vote

goes to one-on-one because I love it.

Do you? Want to know my true score for

one-on-one? Hold on a minute.

Let me just get me sound board ready.

Go on. 2 not one. That's bang out of order it.

Didn't say 1. And Larry?

I gave it a 311 on one and I gave never change 4 so I'm going

to go for never. Change place.

That's two for never change, one for one-on-one, which means that

Never change gets one of these. Back of the net.

OK, two nil to Jay. Yeah, 2 nil to Jay.

I mean, if Jay takes this one, it's in the bag and he's he's

won and he's lifting the cover to shoot out trophy.

Well, let's see what happens, shall we?

Steve, give me another number that you haven't selected before

between 1:00 and 5:00. 3 please. #3 is come get me and Larry. #10

number. 10 is public service announcement, the the great

album version. So that's come get me versus

public service announcement. Here's what they sound like.

I'm too tough to bargain with and you don't want the guard to

pull up. The cars are sick.

Arms and wrist to split up. Queens Bridge King plaques,

awards, applause when I do my thing.

Streets is black as midnight. The concrete break with stains

of blood in German. Not DOC, but similar to the

letters. No one could do better.

I check channel like a food inspector.

My homie Strict told me dude, finish your breakfast.

So that's what I'm gonna do, take you back to the do with the

Lexus. Fast forward.

Right. This is another one-on-one

between Steve and Steve. I know that's two of Steve's

choices. That's so annoying.

Well, let's, OK, let's give you the floor then.

Steve, which one do you want to go for?

Let's do to go for come come get me.

So yeah. So this this is like this is

from from there's a third album. So he was, we were hoping

obviously, that he was is his third album actually. 4th It's

Nostradamus. Because there was, there was 2

albums in the same year, wasn't there?

So, so yeah, so this is this was, this was at a point where I

was hoping that he was going to kind of get like a return to

Illmatic. That was going to be something

that was really kind of like, you know, from the streets.

Were you listened to this at the time?

You. You were.

Bought us buying all of his stuff.

Yeah, I stopped at some point, but I bought I bought

Nostradamus and and it was no, what's the other one?

I am isn't it in this year? And I and I was really

disappointed with with both of them.

And I think first thing to say about both those albums,

probably even if he condensed them into one album, it probably

would have only been my bang on average.

There was just so much in there that was just, you know, not

great. But having said that, I really

like this track. So this is this is produced by

by DJ Premier and it's it's I guess it sounds like a slightly

kind of more commercial and polished DJDJ premiered.

I think it's kind of fit in with perhaps NASA's audience at the

at the time, but it's got a great beat and I love that.

Really like tinny futuristic, like hi hat.

Wherever he does the stretch out that sound, it's it's that

sounds really good and he flows. He does feel really flow really

well on here. It's a really kind of good St

story again. But most most of all, I think I

like it because you've got Primo on that.

It just makes it instant like Hep nodder and any time this

comes on, I'm just instantly kind of nodding my head.

Now one last thing to add, not specifically about about this

track, but I alluded to this earlier.

So so this is from Nastradamus, but there was a there was a

remix album called Nastradumus, which was basically and I don't

think anyone really knows where it came from, but so so MF Doom,

you know, my favourite rapper Larry, you love, love him as

well produced a series of like instrumentals called Special

herbs. So somebody nobody really knows

who went out and just remixed the entire aptness entire Nas

album using using his beats and it sounds way better, way, way

better. But no one's kind of like, you

know, ever got any credit for for kind of doing it.

And and so if listeners haven't heard it, obviously you can't

buy it, but it's it's on YouTube.

Just go and listen to it. It is it's absolutely brilliant.

And I think the only thing I can kind of find out from looking

online about this is that obviously everybody was really

disappointed with this album. So they were like, right, how

can we make this sound better? Let's take Special Herbs, which

was out of that time and smash it.

So, so yeah. So I think it's great track

originally, but go and listen to the to the to the remix as well.

It that's that's a really good track as well.

Yeah, nice. I mean, DJ Premier is, I mean,

somebody we talk about a lot on this podcast, isn't it?

And the best, he's the best. And this is kind of like DJ

Premier by numbers really, isn't it?

But it's but it is excellent like this.

It's undeniably excellent. It's just got that instant head

nodding quality to it. And you just that's what he

does. He does.

Everything. He does every, but he's just,

you know what you're going to get.

It's a formula, but it works, and he ends up often being the

best track on an album just by doing what he does naturally.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I

listened to some of the other ones on this this album, and

they were nowhere near as good as this one for me.

No. And I just think DJ Premier and

NARS are a match made in heaven. Yeah.

I think I will check out that new album that's coming out that

the pair of them are releasing later this year, I think.

Yeah, any day now I. Think yeah, So, yeah, I really

like this one and to the point where I've given it a four

because it, you know, going on and I wasn't, you know, I had to

didn't know it before we did it for this pod.

Yeah, really like it. Really like it.

Larry, what's your? Thought yeah, I think this is a

pretty standard issue DJ Premier B, as you said a bit sort of

premier by numbers, but it's fine.

But it's, it's not a good enough beat to make me want to like,

investigate the lyrics and get into it.

Like, I don't think I've really got much of A desire to listen

to this track again. It's like just very myth,

especially when, like, if there were lots of other DJ Premier

tracks that were as good as this, it would be better.

But it is a. It is a.

It's a formulaic. It's not saying much, is it?

Premier is not like I gave you power, is it?

It doesn't got a hook or a theme.

Yeah, it's one of the it's it's you know what a 2 bar, It's a 2

bar loop. This is not much to it.

And Premiere is like, he can be so much better than.

He he can be his. Best work is so much.

Better than even his not as good stuff is still he's.

Still very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It does drama. I can easily imagine how this is

the best track on the album. Yeah, it's it's definitely not

bad. I I it is good, but it doesn't

it doesn't excite me especially. OK, we're talking of some

something that doesn't excite me.

We move over to public service announcement, the Grey Album

version. Steve, I'm going to give you the

full first and tell us where you chose this one.

Let me tell you about this one. So so for for listeners who

don't know so this this is so public service announcement

interlude is from Jay ZS the black album, which is which is

definitely one of my favourite Jay-Z albums.

Maybe maybe my favourite at the reason reasonable doubt and a

producer called Danger Mouse, which most people might may have

heard from that kind of super group.

Niles Barkley that went kind of like really mainstream crazy,

but he's got also some fantastic production credits with with MF

Doom. A really, what's the.

Name of mouse and the mask. Yeah, Mouse and the Mask, which

is just brilliant, absolutely fantastic.

So really unknown underrated producer from Dangerous combines

The Black Album with The Beatles, The White Album, and

I'm going to let Larry talk about The Beatles.

I like because Beatles is your thing.

And it just takes this really, really good track, I just think

to another level because the kind of eerie, psychedelic

Beatles sound just just, it just came through kind of really,

really great this. Is kind of this is how he made

his name, isn't it? Danger Male?

So this is like his first ever. I knew him before because he

did. He did sort of Gemini go pop

life and everything like that an hour before.

That this is the first I ever I, I remember it coming out at the

time and being sort of like a, like a really talked about yeah

thing. Yeah.

Because like a like a bootleg basically, yeah.

Like no one got paid from it, presumably.

It's like, you know? But it's such a clever thing to

do. And I mean, obviously, so it's

not the only one that's that's, that's great, That sounds great

on there. And then the so that the the

production, I think fantastic. Obviously leaning on The

Beatles, But for me, this is the best Jay-Z track in terms of his

rapping. So Jay-Z, as I've always said,

his, his flow is incredible, but he, he had, he's such, he's such

a good, a good style of it with his like his metaphors and his

punch lines. And this, this track is just

full of them. So like the beginning and, and,

and like you probably start putting like a beat on for this,

but so don't. So my name is Hove H, the OVI

used to move snowflakes by the OVI.

Just love that every time it comes on I'm like brilliant.

Did you see that again? Just a bit, no, a bit more of a

gap on your side. No, but the best line is Hove

not DOC but similar to them letters.

No one can do it better. I check cheddar like a food

inspector. So just such a such a clever.

But when we were just now, I picked up on that.

I checked cheddar like a food inspector.

That's that's a good one. But it's all the way through

just getting the lyrics. I just listen to it.

I mean, just just just reading them as he's as he's rapping.

So, yeah. So for me, his punch lines in

this, his flow, his technique, his, his metaphors, it's just

what stands them out. And, and, and I think this is

what elevates him. Love Nas.

He's just technically he's just, he is, he is actually, I think a

superior rapper, which which I would would have not have

considered perhaps before this podcast, because I think

Illmatic clouds your judgement of Nas because he's just like,

he's absolutely perfect on that. No one can vote anything he does

in that album. But but when you see his content

afterwards, you're like, that's a bit samey.

His rhyme patterns are very similar and then you compare all

the raps that we've heard so far in this pod class from from

Jay-Z and pretty much every track he does, he's he is

phenomenal. He's a phenomenal rapper.

I think This is why he's why he is so, so well known.

He's at the top of his game because.

He backs it up. He's quite frankly a fantastic

rapper. He sounds he sounds really good

everything. And I think and also like, if

you've seen like stuff written about him, he writes his rap so

quickly as well. Hear a tune of going right.

Doesn't actually write. So he doesn't.

Famously doesn't write them down, isn't he?

Keeps them in his head. That's bollocks.

You're welcome. Yeah.

He must write some of them down. Surely there's nobody you can

remember A whole new rap. I mean, you must get it wrong

Quite a lot. Punching quite a lot.

Yeah, I think he's a genius when it come with his.

Lyrics says. I think some people are just on

a different level. Jay-Z, if you're listening, can

you? Bearing in mind there are people

that genuinely do freestyle whole salt like for 10 minutes

at a time and it's better than anything any of us could write

like given a week to do so during.

The next level, aren't they? Yeah.

But is that are they truly like making it up on the top of the

dollar they written saying stuff they've written?

I think it depends on who you're talking about.

I'm always a bit wary of it, but there are some that I've seen

like that just seems like it genuinely off the top.

Yeah, yeah. So this track then, Larry, is

it? Are you a fan of it, given sort

of your massive love of The Beatles?

And like, no, not, not really. I don't, I don't like the album,

I think because of the nature of it and like how it was made.

Like the IT just sounds so bad. Like the actual sounds, like the

the actual experience of the sound quality, like the fact

that the acapella is the kind of presumably ripped from like the

vinyl or something. It just like the actual just

sound quality is. So I just don't like it's, it's

quite a harsh. I think some of them such in the

compellers. So I think right in in good

quality material, but I was hoping just The Beatles link

would just hook you in and you'd be like, yeah, I like this.

I mean, it's, it's interesting for that reason.

I think it, I, I really appreciate the kind of

innovation and the sort of playfulness of the whole idea of

the album. And I, I think the one thing I

would say for it is it makes really good use of what I would

consider probably one of the worst tracks on the White Album,

which is a it's a George Harrison track called Long,

long, long. And I don't, I don't like, I

love the album, but. Are there any are there any

tracks on the Grey Album that you do like?

The thing actually I. Haven't really sort of listened.

I I've, I've skipped through it sort of here and there and never

really, I think it's one of those things where because I

know the source material so well, I sort of think it's a bit

sacrilegious. I know that's kind of silly to

say. That's that's the whole thing

about sampling. But but what I was going to say

is, although I don't like the original track very much, it's

actually, it repurposes it really well.

It's like a really eerie kind of, it's like the original was

quite dirgy, but because of that, that sort of organ sound,

it lends itself nicely to being sampled.

So I think it actually sounds quite good.

Yeah. The best beetle sample ever

incidentally I think on a hip hop track is Tic Tic by MF Dame.

Yeah. Which samples I forget now, but.

Yeah. I don't know what it is.

What it is. Yeah, that is good, Yeah.

Okay, well, what do you think then?

Well, as I've got to be honest with you, when I put this on, I

had absolutely no idea what I was listening to.

I know what it was. I think it's a load of shite.

I think the actual beat itself is not a load of shite.

The actual beat itself is really weak.

It doesn't sort of hit or pop, just kind of.

It just trudges allows. Jay-Z to shine with his lyrics,

yeah. I think The Beatles were an odd

choice for well, it's hip hop sampling, it's the way.

But no, it's it's a gimmick. Yeah, it's a gimmick at the out,

but it's just I think I think it could be good, but just the beat

just did not grab me. Just not my thing at all.

I just didn't I didn't get it and then but I, you know, I

listen to the original and I think the original was banging.

I think it's pretty. The reason I like the original,

the main reason I like the original is it uses the same

sample that is on the OC album Word Life.

You know, the beginning of point of views.

There's a, there's a little interlude that comes in.

It's the same sample on the original Public Service.

Analysis. I think most people like the

original. My daughter way prefers the

original. Well, like, it's quite short,

isn't? It's just an interlude, but it

is Varsity's spirit to this. I didn't know what I was

listening to. Don't like it?

I saw I got, but I, I was like the same, like it's just a sort

of an interlude, a weird sort of including thing.

And yeah, it just doesn't so surprised me that that you

chose. Yeah, me too.

Is that what? I absolutely love it, it's one

of my favourite tracks is this is a 5 out of five track in my

opinion and the the original version would be a four out of

five. OK, each to their own, yes, but.

We we never agree. No, we never right.

Well, let's vote then. Let's see which of these two are

going to is going to win. It was come get me versus public

service announcement. Steve, what are you going for in

your two? Like which?

Which of your own children are you going to kill?

Well, public service and that's really that gets A5 come get me

because of four. So it's public service.

Public service. And that's not Larry.

I've actually I'm going to revise my score.

I gave them both 2. I'm going to come.

On that's one of those. That's bang out of order.

Yeah, I think by the time I maybe this came late in my

ranking, I was getting a bit annoyed, but I'm going to

upgrade, come get me to a three. OK.

Interesting. And that and it gets my and that

gets my vote. Well, yeah, I mean, as you can

have worked out, I'm going to go for come get me as well.

I gave it a four out of five. I think it's vastly superior to

Public Service Niles. Gets gets the score.

So Niles gets one on the board that is makes a 21, AM I right?

Yes. So Niles gets one of these.

Back of the net. I just want to quickly go over

to David Seaman to see what he makes of all this.

I was England's number one. OK.

And so we are going to go on now to the fourth match in the

shootout. So, Steve, give me one of the

remaining numbers between 1:00 and 5:00, if you can remember

what you've picked, really. Dead yet One, please.

One which is locomotive Larry between 6:00 and 10:00. 9. 9 is

dead presidents 2, so that's locomotive versus dead

presidents 2. Here they are since.

They got what? This *** the lead, my biggest

threat. I get high, I forget who bled

who. We start kicking the head and

who we left for dead. Who are you *** Why are you ***

The truth is the truth. I really put my scars on ***

They wear them lifetime. They tell the hoes.

Not at this point. Man laid up on the Uptown hot

block. He got his side sprayed up.

I saw his life slipping. This is a minor set back.

You're stealing all we live in. Just dream about to get back.

That made him smile though. As I said, pray for me.

I do you one better with ladies. *** faithfully murderous.

So this is the President's 2 was Steve's choice, but I think it's

one that I would have put in there as well.

And locomotive was Larry's choice.

So let's let you go first on this one, Larry.

Locomotive why did you choose this one?

Yeah, so this is from 2012. I think Life is good.

Life is Good album, which it has like up until about track 5 or

so it's brilliant. And then after that it kind of

it it, it drops off, but I can it's.

So bloated it's unbelief. Very bloated, I could have

easily chosen like any of like 4 tracks like from the first sort

of yeah from the opening kind of half of the album quite quite

easily. But this one I thought would

stand a bit of a better chance of doing well in the

competition. I think it's probably like my

favourite non illmatic Nas track.

Produced by an old friend of ours.

Produced by No ID I've got in my notes.

I kind of assumed it was produced by Large Professor.

I did too because he's featured on it.

He does like the little speaking kind of chorusy bits and I just

therefore assumed that he produced it.

As well, and it was only last night when I realised that it.

Was no ID, yeah. He's more likely to produce a

Jay-Z track, really. Because of his well, he

produced, he produced 444, didn't he?

And yeah, he's he, I did it like a killer mic out.

He's done loads of kind of really, he's really sort of, you

know, he gets out storied kind of producer.

But yeah, I think what I love about this, it's just such an

earthy, grimy, gritty sounding track.

It's got like you can hear like the sound of the train tracks,

like all throughout the tracks, all buried in the mix.

And like that piano, they could have chosen to have that a lot

brighter, but it's just murky in in the mix.

The drums are just hard, no reverb on them.

And it just is the perfect sound.

Bad for like the stuff that he's talking about.

Like there are some great lyrics on on this, Like on the first

verse, there are quite a few things that kind of stick that

go together thematically. So he says like blunt because of

dread, I get high and forget who bled, who we stomp kicked in the

head and who we left the dead, which is just so visceral.

And then shortly after that, war story, war stories, we tell him

nothing's realer than karma. And there's a bit where he sort

of brags about, he says about how there there are people like,

you know, from back in the day in the Heard who to this day

brag that they got their scars from NARS, which is which is

pretty cool. There's another another one

where he talks about burning the roof of his mouth.

On the piece of. What was quite a great imagery.

To know, yeah. Melting, yeah.

He is more poetic than Jason. Isn't he definitely.

I think they're both really intelligent rappers.

But but and he. Also says it like in that little

passage, like I know you think my life good because my diamond

piece, but my life's been good since I started finding peace.

So he's kind of saying with with that kind of stuff that it's

still he's he's, he's having his cake and eaten a little bit.

He's telling those old war stories.

But he's also from a more mature perspective, saying like that

stuff doesn't leave you and it it weighs on your mind and

that's why you kind of drink and smoke to kind of forget about

that kind of stuff. I just, yes, it is.

It's very poetic that the whole thing and yeah, I just, it's

just, it's just a great one of his great tracks, I think.

I love it. Yeah, I, I hadn't heard it

before we did this and I think it's a really, really dope.

Yeah, it's. Really, I also the one thing I

just sorry to cut over you, but one thing I will say as well, I

think the production sort of goes out of its way to reference

like New York State of Mind. OK.

I think it's just it's like that piano kind of the grit that

gritty. Yeah, yeah, noise, noises in the

background. It it just seems to me to be a

sort of a bit of a mirror, like an updating of.

Yeah, a kind of slice of a slice of New York life.

Yeah, Yeah, No, I'll go along with that.

But yeah, no, I think it's really don't be hard and hard

driving, really evocative. Like you say, Larry really

conjures a particular place and time and yeah, really, really

love it. I think, you know, no idea.

He's a bit, I'm a big fan of no idea.

And I think this is a this has got his fingerprints all over

it. Perhaps not, you know, not the

resurrection, yeah, sound that he's known for.

But, you know, this is a good, just a high quality production.

And yeah, I think that Nas sounds really good over it.

Really good. Just classic Nas delivery.

Lots of imagery, lots of poetry. Yeah.

So I was really pleased. We kind of think it.

Sounds as good as as ever on this.

Yeah, This is, this is one of his urges.

Yeah. If, if listeners haven't,

haven't This life is good. It is it, although it's bloated,

there are some good tracks tracks on there.

They'd have chopped a few of the, the the the fitter out.

It would have. Been there's something I was

reading about it earlier because I'd never sort of looked into

the history of it, but he compared it a little bit to Here

My Dear, the Yeah Gay album, because it's when he, he just

like broke, like divorced Kelis. Yeah, yeah.

And on the album cover, I've never kind of realised what it

was, but he sat there like in a club in a white suit with a

green dress on his lap, Right? And so basically, this album is

about him. It's a breakup album.

It's him sort of being a single man again.

So he's in this club wearing his suit.

And the dress that he's holding is Kelly's actual wedding dress.

Because he said that's the only thing she left him.

Wow. Like saying that he like she

cleaned him out I guess is what he's kind of getting.

He hates right so much right now.

Yeah, exactly. So I so maybe the reason it's

bloated is like, I think that there was maybe an element of

just getting something out there to make some money to like pay

for the divorce and stuff. Just speculating there.

But but it But Despite that, there are some brilliant tracks

on the album. Yeah, absolutely.

Anything to add on Locomotive Steve before we move on?

To no. I think I've been chipping in

and adding all my thoughts. Cool.

So yeah, the other track was Dead Presidents 2.

This is obviously the one that's on Reasonable Doubt, a new

version with new lyrics, wasn't it?

Because the original Dead Presidents came out on a as a

single and then when the album came out it had this version

with different lyrics. So this was your choice, Steve.

It just had to be on there, didn't it?

Yeah, absolutely love this. So this is this is thanks to

you. I like this album because I

think I I probably got a copy from from you.

Yeah, it's got that classic kind of like mid to late 90s beat,

just that hard, like gritty boom bap sound.

And and and he it's obviously this is from his debut album, so

he's just full of that bravado. But I love it, you know, just,

you know, you know, talking about being like a street

hustler, probably not as many like punch lines or metaphors as

he kind of like matures. And I think just love the

there's a slight irony that there's that, that the nurse

sample in the in the course. As well, Yeah.

So yeah, it's just track that I can.

I never ever get tired of hearing this.

Yeah, I don't. I don't.

I'm just. Classic Jay-Z maybe?

Maybe one of my favourite Jay-Z tracks.

Yeah, it's it's just for me, it's on the like the Mount

Rushmore of hip hop songs. It's one of the the timeless

kind of, it's not quite maybe shook one's level, but it's up

there in that kind of that group of songs that kind of.

Define hip. Define the hip What from the

90s? It's an incredible beat by the

producer. Yeah, he's not a very well named

producer, but no. He's he was from the group

Original Flavour, which I think they've appeared on.

Yeah, this podcast before. Can I get open?

So we talked about and then and he went on to yeah, obviously

produce this and he's produced lots of other stuff like Camp

Low and groups like that. But he's a really good producer.

And this sample on this track was just one of the all timers.

That piano from the Lonnie Liston Smith track is awesome.

And this was the whole reason I bought Reasonable Doubt in the

1st place. You know, I heard this and just

had to have the album because it was just, it's just iconic.

It's funny because that album is not probably as appreciated as

much as I think it should be. Does that make sense?

I think it's like, I think it's a classic album.

You don't hear it talked about in that.

I mean, people say it's, you know, Jay-Z, a lot of people say

it's Jay-Z best, but it's not revered in the same way as your

automatics and you're ready to dies.

But it should be. This is the debut of like, yeah,

one of the biggest. I think that's probably just

because, like, it's 96, isn't it?

It's just it is the tail end of that era.

Like it's the dregs of that era and.

So I mean. Probably why it doesn't get.

I think if it came out earlier it would have been.

Bigger. He missed his interest, didn't.

As I said earlier, I think yeah, a year or two before he would

have, he would have really blown up even more.

Talking of ski and original flavour, that was the first time

I ever heard Jay-Z. It was on Can I get open because

he's featured on? That.

Yeah, yeah. So.

That that kind of opened my ears.

That was 93 and that opened my ears to Jay-Z.

So I had him on my radar all that time.

And then Reasonable Doubt came out, plus the president, who was

like a must buy. And at the time I actually

wasn't disappointed. You know, I, I really, really

like Reasonable Doubt. I listen to it a lot.

This blew the speakers out of your little mini metro.

It certainly did. Yeah, absolutely.

Larry, the President's two thoughts.

Yeah, I've not got much to say on this.

In fact, my notes say see above. And that's in relation to

politics as usual. So I just like, to me, it's,

it's just fine. I don't have the connection with

it. It's just, it's all right.

I remember we were talking about this before.

You don't have that connection. Now that we do just a little

kind of bit of trivia on this, like going back to what you said

about having the Nas sampled on it, I happened to see a

interview with MC Search the other day.

He was obviously like involved on the business side of all of

this stuff back in the day. And I'd like Nas did very well

out of that sample being on there.

Like I think he said something like the initial fee to clear

the sample was like 2 1/2 grand or something like that.

But then he got like something like a 20% cut of the of the

like the writing credits really things.

So like every year he's just he's made like 1,000,000 off of

off of their space and knew. What he was doing, Yeah.

Okay, so we will vote on this one then.

Larry, let's go to you first. It's definitely locomotive.

Locomotive. That's one nil, Steve.

Yeah, I like Locomotive. I think it's a good track.

But yeah, Dead Press is definitely going to get.

Yeah, I wouldn't be 5 out of five.

Yeah, same. I wouldn't be able to sleep at

night if I didn't give it to dead presence. 2 five out of

five for me as well. So that gets my vote.

So that is another. Jay-Z win.

Goal for Jay-Z, which means it makes it 31.

So he's won this shootout with a match to spare.

So Jay-Z, you get another one of these.

Back of the net. And we're going to move on to

the final match, which is between White Label and Politics

as usual off of reasonable doubt as well.

Usual. Sorry, Steve.

Let's have a listen to both of those 19. 93 that choker in her

mouth spitter mouse Ripper ass Ripper that dig you out *** I

ain't gonna hold you Oh hey, gave me old news.

I don't Oh, you should have heard when I told you you are an

extensive. Dude with that shit for real the

price of letters got me deeper than ever and just think when

this here I'm trying to fill me in the car politics.

As usual, as OK politics as usual there.

And white label, Larry, the white label was your choice.

I knew nothing about this before we entered this.

So yeah, enlighten us. Yeah.

Well, I, I kind of, I anticipate that this is one that neither of

you will like at all. And I sort of struggle now that

I, when I was listening to it this morning, I was thinking, I

haven't really got much to say about this other than I just

like the sample, right? Like it's samples like like an

Iranian singer. Yeah, I kind of assumed it was

like a really like a 60s kind of obscure.

I think it's actually much more recent than that, like from the

2000s or something. But yes, a song, a track called

Prison Song by Shahram Shab para butchered the the the

pronunciation of that there. But it's just an interesting

sample and I just like it. I just like the way it sounds

like it's really, really as simple as that, to be honest.

And yeah, it just goes back to wanting to choose something non

obvious from Nas. There was another track from

this album, which is it's sort of a short album produced

entirely by Kanye West. Nazir.

Nazir, it's called. Yeah, there's another track on

there called Cop Shot the Kid, which I was, which I was

originally going to nominate, but I thought this Danny

especially would just hates it. It kind of it's got like a vocal

sample, like all the way through it, like the cop, like Richard

Pryor saying Cop shot the Kid. It's a bit weird, kind of like

this one really, but I don't know, I just like it.

Yeah, just like it. And that's fair enough.

Sometimes it doesn't need any more than that.

It's a funny album this, but it's almost like an EP.

Yeah, it's like 6-7 tracks, basically Kanye West, like

throughout the course of about a year and a half per out, I think

about four albums like this, There's like, he did one, there

was one that he did, he donated with Nas, he produced one for

Pusha T and he did one with one called Kids Sea Ghosts.

Yeah, which I think is Kid Cudi. Oh yeah, yes.

That's got a really good track on it, but the title track's

really good on that but. So this isn't an album like I've

like spent a lot of time on, but this might surprise you.

I do like this track, right? But when I put I posted like who

chose white label on the group tracks, I was like, this is such

a random choice. I should have guessed it was

you. Larry's never going to be Danny,

but I really like it. And I think like the Kanye beat

is is really stripped down more than you'd expect from him.

And yeah, it has like a slightly like frantic feel to it with

those with those horns, which then really suits Nas is like

stochastic. Throat, I really like his flow

on there like like you're saying about the staccato flow earlier,

like he like he does do that, but on this I just like it.

It's very like it's delivered with precision.

Yeah, it works, isn't it? It really, really works.

So, yeah, so just one that really grew me and I, I, there's

a nice little nod in there as well, because he raps about

being the product of Slick Rick, which is something that's really

nice, nice little homage to him as well.

Storyteller. Yeah, because I think that's

where he kind of moulded himself.

Yeah. I mean, a lot of rappers wanted

to be like Slick Rick, didn't they?

Yeah, he said. I forgot the exact direction but

it's something like sleeping on the most expensive beds still

having sleepless nights or something like that.

Yeah, he's deep, isn't he? Now he's deep.

So yeah, no, it's a, it's a good track.

Just a just a strange like short short ad.

Yeah, I have to say, Larry, you're right.

It's not my cup of tea. I I, you know, it's, I don't

think you can immediately tell it's a Kanye West sample, but

then he did. Then again, he does like taking

those kind of weird vocal samples and just sort of

chopping and looping them up, bit like testify off of.

Yeah. Well, The thing is with Kanye

West, so there's such a kind of his career spanned such a long

time with different kind of stars.

I don't think you have a say something is a Kanye West, Kanye

West beat or. This is this is from the draw of

Kanye West marked I don't like these.

This is like, this is like my least kind of favourite type of

Kanye beat. Yeah, I just found a bit lazy

and repetitive, but there's not a lot to it.

In fact, I don't you know, I to to me, I can't believe this sort

of passes of hip hop. Yeah, it it kind of it's it's

not it's not you know, I can I can do what you like.

I. Completely anticipate it.

Yeah, with public service announcement of beating this.

The weird version that you chose.

No, they both got 2, so they're both as bad as each other.

I just wanted to know. No, I didn't know, Larry, you're

absolutely right. I didn't like.

I don't like this one. I don't really know what more I.

Can say I was trying to, I did make an effort to try and listen

to like Nas stuff that I didn't know, but there is a lot of it

and I'm sure I would like. I think he's a lot more.

I would much rather listen to modern Nas than I know Jay-Z

isn't sort of putting stuff out now, but I think Nars has got is

a much is just better. I I much prefer Nars and I'm

more happy to listen to his stuff.

His latest run of arms Are are are better?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've, I have tried

listening to some of those and I like I, I, I quite like them,

but I've never sort of quite latched onto one in the way that

I did with like Life Is Good and to a lesser extent, like Nazir

as well. He's moved on to hit boy

production now, which is really hitting a stride.

So just a different Nile 0 now. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I don't like this, but I do appreciate what both of you

choosing tracks that kind of, we don't, you know, wouldn't get

talked about much otherwise. So yeah, that's what this

podcast is all about. Yeah, This is why this one's

been good. Yeah, so let's move over to our

final track, Jay-Z Politics as usual.

This was my choice. I was a bit sort of torn about

which other track from Reasonable Doubt to choose.

All of my Jay-Z choices had to come from reasonable doubt

because it's kind of like this is my this is my Jay-Z.

And this one, I chose it because basically the beat blew me away

when I first heard it is it's the stylistic hurry up this way

again sample and. So well done.

Isn't it? It's so, it's so well done.

I really love it. Love that I subsequently then

got the got the stylistic song and it's in my kind of playlist

of favourite soul tracks ever. Yeah, it's so good.

I'd agree with that. Yeah, absolutely love it.

I just, I love this album and yeah, the album bought it in New

York and just this was kind of one of the stand outs.

Listening back to it now, it's perhaps not quite as good a hip

hop track as I perhaps remember. I think I was kind of more, I'm

more a fan of the Stylistics original now.

So this back to it, there's not actually a lot to it and the

chorus isn't particularly memorable and it's just him

saying politics as usual how it's not.

How much do you? Think but at the time in 96 I

loved. It because how many other

producers at the time we were using this those samples, these

soul samples in this way like did this was kind of like

probably, you know, really influential to to people like

Kanye West well. It was, it was interesting.

That's an interesting point because a lot of the, the, the

the producers, they were sampling stuff from like the 70s

and they were doing, you know, James Brown and they were doing,

you know, that sort of funk. And but this is a kind of a

early 80s sort of sole stepper. It's not typically the sort of

stuff that people sample there are, you know, they don't get

sampled, but it's not typically the type of track that would get

sampled, certainly not in 96. So yeah, I like it on that for

that reason. I just think it's really clever.

I like the way it's looped up. I like the way they repeat the

little vocal phrases of the sample.

Yeah, just love it so. It's quite a clever, I don't

know what the proper word is here, but obviously politics

usually are talking about the the drug game rather than

typical, the typical politics that we're used to.

And this is 1 where I had in my notes that he did write, he did

write the looks just in an hour. So.

All right. But he's, yeah, it's a typical

kind of subject matter for Jay-Z.

Just, you know, drugs and all that sort of stuff, the usual

stuff. It's nothing.

He's on the hustle. Revolutionary.

But it's I just think it's really well done.

Yeah, I agree. Larry, politics as usual.

Yeah, this is the track for which I wrote the note.

See above. Their presidents, too.

I, I think, you know, it's fine. I don't have the attachment to

it. I think my issue with Jay-Z is

that while he's like, he's technically brilliant, it's

probably technically better than ours.

I think he can do sort of. He can do more.

He's more flexible. He's more flexible.

He can sort of do, do, do kind of trickier stuff and he's and

he's got a good, a really good voice.

Jay-Z. But for my money, Clive, his

lyrics like if you compare him to his peer group, which I would

say are the likes of Nas, Big E, yeah, Big L, yeah, I they blow

him away. Like in terms of that, I mean,

yes, earlier I'm I'm thinking of.

Sort of that that particular. Era, but if you're comparing him

with MC's like that, he's just not he's he's kind of I find his

lyrics quite forgettable compared to those rappers

especially kind of they're not it's not as if they're singing

about completely different subject matter like Biggie

especially talking about. The drug very similar.

Biggie just like absolutely blows him away.

Yeah, I agree. Like there was a Jay-Z lyric

from somewhere. I can't remember where it's

from, he says. If I'm not better than Big, I'm

the closest one and I just don't I don't agree with it.

I, I, I don't know, I, I think I, I maybe do agree with that,

but maybe like to bigs credit here.

If, if he, if he wasn't, if he hadn't died in that era, he,

he'd be bigger than Jay-Z wouldn't.

He, I don't, well, I don't, I don't know personally.

I I think he completely peaked with his first album.

Personally, we have discussed. Personally, peaceful.

I, you know, I think he was showing signs of a decline on

the on the second album for me personally.

But I think the point you're making because Biggie could do

what Jay-Z was doing better. Yeah, but they're both much more

charismatic. And you just, you want to

listen. To believe.

So much, yeah, but you just got the best kind of voice and flow

ever. Yeah.

And it's funny and everything. Jay-Z, his lyrics, I just find

them a bit forgettable really. Yeah, and then the most part and

then he sours his represents were doing like hard knock life

or anything. This is why.

What's that about? You can't be weird, isn't it?

Well, that's it always. We're going to vote on the last

match, I'll get things kicked off.

I'm going to go politics as usual.

Obviously that's one vote for me.

What's the other track? It was white label.

My white label, I mean, I'm going to go for white label,

although, you know, I appreciate that, say an outline that's a

kind of outsider. Got back choice, haven't you?

Yeah, I bet you're in choice. It's a decider here from Steve.

I know Jay-Z has already won, but.

I know. Yeah, I don't really get this

opportunity, do I don't have to decide it.

I do like white label, but my, I'm going to do it down here and

I'm going to go with my heart, my heart, heart overhead here

and politics. I think the majority of people

would would choose that. So that's another win for Jay-Z

with politics as usual. So here's a four.

One, it's close to a clean sweep.

Close to a clean sweep. I actually thought that it would

be a clean sweep. When I look at the tracks, I

thought Jay-Z can win this five nil because there's no there's.

I know there's a remix of it, hard to tell, but I thought I

think Jay-Z is better than us. And I didn't think that before

this podcast I'd have said Nas is better.

He should be more held in highest team.

I think we just put together the stronger team of penalty takers

there with Jay-Z. I think the tracks we picked

were stronger. I.

Think now, is it a fair a fair shot?

Yeah. Well anyway, I just don't think

he has as many good tracks as as Jay-Z.

I, I, I will, I will say this much.

If we went a bit more route, one with NARS like we like, you

know, there were two tracks from reasonable doubt on there.

If you had two tracks from Illmatic, it would have been a

different story. I think you're right.

I think you're right. But that's it though.

That's my he. Could have quite He could have

very easily won won this. But Jay-Z has has tracks over

the entirety of of like different generations.

Yeah. But whereas NARS really does

only have Illmatic, which is blinding us because it is the

best, never objectively. Speaking, but having said that,

I think if we were if we were, if all of us were properly

following both artists and just objective, you know, doing so

objectively, like especially given that Nas is like still

putting out churning out really good stuff.

That's a good point. I think you would probably have

to say that Nas is is better, but you can only kind of play

the the tracks that are in. Front of you.

You can only beat these in front of you.

Absolutely. So Jay-Z gets a one of these.

Back of the net. Puts it in the bottom left hand

corner and gets one of these overall.

So So what what we've established conclusively there

is that Jay-Z is better than ours.

If you agree, disagree, let us know what you think on X

Instagram threads and blue sky. Just search at hip Hop World

Cup. Give us a follow and let us know

you're listening. Also, please subscribe and leave

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platform of choice. And don't forget we've got our

Patreon account now, so search for us on there.

But that's it. Thanks for listening and we'll

see you for our next shoot out. Peace.

Good looking boy, I love The Beatles.

Yeah, so do I. What's your favourite Beatles

out in a? Tough one, I think I'd have to

say the best of The Beatles.