SHOOTOUT 8: Lord Finesse vs Diamond D

World Cup. Hello. Hello. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Hello. And welcome to Hip Hop World Cup Shootout, the podcast that pits Golden Age rappers and producers against each other to find the ultimate champions. I'm your host, Annie Phillips, and I'm joined by the man who thought Big L was my T-shirt size, Steve Hiscock. It's bigger than that. Are you? Yeah. Good, good, good. And you ready for this one, Larry? And the man who thought royal Flush was what King Charles does after taking a shit?

Yeah, he does. James Luscombe, How are you, Champs? You OK? Good, good, good. We're broadcasting this episode live from a packed House of Lords in Westminster, where the work of two legendary hip hop producers is about to be scrutinised, debated and legislated. They are two of the founding members of New York's Digging in the Crates crew, or DITC as they're known to their family and friends. Yes, that's right. Today Lord Finesse and Diamond D are going to battle it out in a versus shoot out. I should just say lads, we we did have Lord Mandelson booked to appear on the show in his underpants to give us his DITC thoughts, but he couldn't make it for obvious reasons.

So yeah. Yeah, naughty boy. Bit of a shame that so, but anyway, So Lord Steve, for the benefit of the House, what can you tell us about DITC and what these two producers mean to you? Yeah, so you describe them as kind of legendary, but they're they're probably not as well known to the to the rap world as, as, as some of the other other, you know, producers and MCS that we've talked about on on this show. So they are basically a kind of an informal collective of, of producers and and lyricists from predominantly the Bronx in, in New York.

And I think they have been just hugely influential in shaping that kind of like New York sound. So I think it's hard to say exactly. I think when it when they first kind of began, but Lord Finesse, Lord Finesse and Diamond D are kind of like, yeah, considered like the founder members, which is I think because Diamond D started out way back in like 1979 doing like DJing for, you know, right back in the kind of early days. And he was then kind of heavily influenced by someone called Jazzy J Don't think we've ever kind of really talked about on this on this podcast, but he he was kind of like Zulu Nation and also I think a bit instrumental like setting up like Def Jam records.

So anyway, so he was he started to do some production on Lord Finesse Sam, because Lord Finesse is that album. Funky Technician was the was the first album to come out of the kind of like DITC Crew and Diamonds album which is one of my favourite albums. I know you. Two were not stunts, blunts and hip hop. Stunts Blunt will not kind of sit with with with you 2 like it does with me, and I'll talk a bit more about that later. I do. Like it though I will, you know it's not. I've listened to it actually a lot recently.

It's just such a classic album. But so that came out a year after Lord Vanessa's first album. So anyways I own the the CD for stunts, blunts and hip hop because you can't stream it on like stuff. It's. Rare. It's really rare. So I'm really proud that I own the CD and I was looking in the line of notes this week in preparation for this. And I'm going to read, read it out because I think it really kind of sums up the DITC sound a message. So I won't read it all out, but there's a there's a bit here.

So it says, what if you knew that Diamond was the man responsible for some of the fattest production skills known to the rap industry? Even if he does say so himself. Even if he does so. So yeah. What if you knew that he started as DJ for hip hop legend Jazzy J back in 1979? Could you still hold it in even if you knew that artists like Showbiz and AG, Lord Finesse Apache and the Ghetto Girls? Ghetto Girls, we've never heard of them, have also He's also produced produced for them. They were his satisfied clients, apparently.

Oh, right. And then the round of applause for that. Definitely. And the last bit just he does, he does kind of go on a bit on his in his in his line of notes. Hang on, it keeps flipping around here. He writes a really nice, nice bit here, he says. He brags that the hip hop revolution will be led by this team of New Yorkers determined to re establish the Bronx to the capital of hip hop. They have a potent mixture of chunky, funky sounds that provide butt shaking, head nodding energy track after track.

Here's the main bit here. Sorry. The recipe calls for a basic beat and rhyme, and I think this is what we'll talk about. Lots today is blended with a few flutes, some saxophone and a tidbit of trumpets. He definitely liked a flute in 92, that's for sure. Yeah, it's all over that album. I think, I think they're kind of sounding in in general was just such good use of like those MPCS and those productions. They really are like like Lord Furness and Diamond in particular are like masters of of this.

The producers from this crew, they've all got, they're all of a piece, aren't they? They've got a, they're obviously sort of influencing each other and. I think so, yeah, they've got a very particular style. I think it's just very definitely by the way that. Shapes so much of the of hip hop sound, but particularly the hip hop sound. I think so, yeah. And then, sorry, last thing to add for the for the crew. So it's not it's not just Lord Vanessa Diamond D. So they've they've made their some mates with some other other other well known hip hop artists.

And I think for for all of these artists, they've all released like a classic album. This is like, This is why they're kind of like so revered. So you've got Showbiz, who's a fantastic producer, AG who's one of Danny's, Danny's favourites, Fat Joe, who's a kind of a bit more like gangster Big owl, absolute legend OC, who's kind of considered, you know, one of one of the best lyricists and and his album Wildlife is just brilliant. And Buckwild, who are we are reserving his own episode for? Because this was because he's so prolific.

Definitely this was going to be Lord Finesse Fee Buckwild. But we we were looking into the tracks for Buckwild and we realised there were so many that he needs his own solo shootouts. So we'll we'll do that later in the series. But so we switched him in for Diamond D, which is, you know, I'm all kind of relevant opponent really when you think about rapper. Producer whereas. Buckwild's just a just a producer, really. So yeah, this, this, this versus shootout felt right. But yeah, thanks for that, Steve.

So what, Larry, what's your relationship like with these producers?

I don't. I kind of realised that I don't know as many of their kind of tracks as I thought. Like the only kind of the only album that I'm really, really familiar with is Big L's first album. Apart from that, it's just kind of little production spots on albums, Yeah, sort of here and there. And like the odd track that I like on sort of showbiz and AGS on on like Next Level. Is it Next Level? Yeah. Goodfellas. Yeah, sorry. Couple tracks on there and yeah, just beats here and there. But yeah, I'm not.

I'm not as familiar with them as I sort of assumed I was, but. I think. I do, I do like them all and OC obviously like Word Life is a is a great album, but again, I only sort of really got into that sort of relatively recently. Yeah, yeah, I should. Point out as well, this was my choice. This is more a past St, yeah, more a past street. But I mean, yeah, obviously Larry likes a lot of the the OC stuff, which I think OC is quite well represented in this in the shootout as well. But the the. The general style of music is kind of right up my street.

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I mean, these are two of my my favourite producers. That's why I was kind of, you know, keen to do this one because I love the whole DITC style. It's a very distinctive style that they kind of developed and like really using the SP 1200 to its kind of maximum ability like doing things with it like really quite quite sort of dynamic and really sort of different use of. It I've been watching sort of quite a few, like especially the Lord. Finance, yeah. Videos like he's, he's quite sort of prominent on, yeah, sort of interviews on YouTube and stuff and just watching him.

Just use it like this word. Doesn't it just he's like the other thing of a master for the sort of the EU as well, He's so? Good on like, like you. It's the cut he makes, the kind of videos where you think, Oh yeah, I could just buy an SP and I would be as good as that and you just realise. There's no way. You you would quickly realise that that you're not. The way he uses it's just a work of art. Yeah. But what I've also realised is, is like he says, like he learned from like Jazzy J and then he has then passed it on to all the other members of his like DITC.

So I think it must be so interesting if you were in that crowd at that time and you were just learning from each other, it must have been so exciting. And so like, yeah, at the, at the, you know, front edge of, of what's going on in hip hop. I think for me particularly like Lord Finesse, not so much with Diamond D, but it's the way that that Lord Finesse does a lot of tricks and production things like the snare rolls he does with the drums and the way he chops the drums in his programming is just exceptional.

He's a great rapper as well. He's a great, he's a good rapper too. But it's just for me, it was always about the, you know, every time I would see him in the liner notes of an album, it's I'm buying it because it's because those are the, those are the producers I'm looking for. Because it's the sort of stuff he does with the snare rolls, the horns and the delay he puts on the horns, filtered bass lines, all that sort of stuff. Well, and the thing we should say, they're called digging in the crates for a reason, because they, they're, they are, you know, they have thousands, like 10s of thousands of albums and they find these really obscure, amazing samples that are just.

Yeah. And so few of the samples that Finesse uses, certainly I know, I don't know what they are like a lot of the time they're just sort of quite random. And that's because he's got a particular production style we might come into this, especially when we talk about one of the tracks hips of the game. But he he constructs new melodies from the samples and he and he messes about with him in a way that actually he's not taking A2 bar loop. He's he's actually making something new with the samples as well, which is really, really good at.

And he's just an absolute beast on the SP12. But yeah, I could talk about that all day. Where were you first kind of introduced to both of these? Where did you first hear about it? Was it for like stunts blunts for you Steve or? No, I think like I think probably MTV hearing like some of the tracks from stunts blunts and MTV because as as you'll find out in a minute, like the track I've chosen from there isn't necessarily the most well known. Like like Day in the life is just like such an iconic tracks.

I think knowing a few of his tracks, like Sally's got one track mind and and then thinking I want to learn more about this, this artist. So buying that album, like wow, there's loads of stuff and I recognise it's just quite heavily sampled. Yeah, and then probably Lord Finesse about, you know, about the same time, like getting a student loan and being able to go back and buy a few CDs. In fact, I'm not sure. Maybe, maybe I've got funky technician from you actually. No, I've never had it. I still don't own it.

Maybe. You've got it from me then. You know, maybe I still don't have it. I don't have any funky. Technician. No, I love. That the earliest one I've got is Return of the Funky. My my first induction to Finesse was on the Trespass soundtrack. You know what I'm about. There's a track on Lord Finesse track on there. You know what I'm about? When he was sort of associated with the Rhyme Syndicate iced teas label. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That in 92. So that's where I first got introduced to him. But like, after that, I kind of skipped out.

I didn't didn't buy Return of the Funky Man, didn't buy a funky technician. I kind of got into him. I think it might have been like OC like you, Larry. I mean, OC was when I probably first started seeing him as a locker producer that I would buy actively. Well, that's the thing because primarily he he started as a battle rapper and he was like a mentor for Big L and then and then he he's probably better known or his quality is better or his production. Yeah. And then you as we'll see in this podcast, there's some both of them have got a reach quite wide, haven't they even across to like the the West Coast of America?

And we will discuss his rapping and his kind of style and his punch lines. Well, as we go through the tracks, I'm sure. So we'll save it for that. Just quickly on Diamond DI mean my introduction to him was through the Fat Joe album. We haven't got any of his tracks on this actually, but he's he's featured one of your choices. But he that was my kind of proper first introduction to Diamond D and his style because I didn't really have stunts. But he's a bit more kind of harder to pin down. He's he's kind of he hasn't got a distinctive style as such.

Diamond DI mean a lot of this stuff is really good and dope, but it's kind of you can't pin it down. How would you describe his style, Steve? It's quite difficult, isn't it? It's quite tricky, I think he describes, as I described in this kind of line of notes, he'll try and find something so funky with a, with a with and add something kind of melodic in there. And it just has that kind of like dusty, underground New York sound, that kind of, you know, he's. He's a bit less showy, isn't he? A bit less, kind of he's.

Yeah, that's good. By describing him, yeah. Grounded than finesse, yeah, but I also, I enjoy, I do enjoy him as a rapper too. He's kind of got one of those recognisable voices, much like a Pete Rock. Yeah, yeah. A little bit more competent on the mic than Pete Rock perhaps, but. Oh yeah, a lot more, yeah. But but yeah, no big fan of both of these. Anything else to add before we move on? Oh, Larry, I did have one question for you actually. Do you think is Lord Finesse A genuine peer of the realm or was did he get the title for one of those websites?

But let let you own. I think it's Scotland. I think it's a sort of Doctor Dre type of situation. Yeah. Self appointed. Yeah. Yeah. Professor Griff. Yeah, no, he's professor, I don't. Think any of them are? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair enough. OK, If you're new to the show and want to know how it works, here's a quick run through of the rules, ladies and gentlemen. In our shootout versus episodes, we pick 2 hip hop producers or rappers to compete against each other and find out which is the winner.

We select 5 tracks to represent each side. Those 5 tracks include one personal pick from each host, while the other two tracks are decided between us. They can be from any era as long as the artist or producer came to prominence in the 1990s, but they can't be songs we've already discussed on our Dream Team or playoff episodes. Essentially, they've been cup tied. During the shootout, we pick the tracks at random to face each other, discuss them and decide which is the winner. Using the three man vote is the best of five.

Whichever side scores the most wins. So let the shootout commence as per usual. This podcast is being monitored by VAR Technology and in tribute to Lord Finesse, our panel includes another famous Lord Amstrad, founder and star of TV's The Apprentice, Lord Allen of Sugar. Good afternoon, Your Highness. One of you is going to get fired. OK, well, charming as ever. Joining him are two unofficial Lords of the football realm, Roy Hodgson. How are you, Roy? If you're going to be tricky like that, I won't even bother to, you know, carry on.

Should we? Let's stop it here, Should we? Such a pretty tricky with your questions. Always sorry. Sorry to offend you, Roy and David Siemens here. Thanks for joining us, David. Pleasure mate. Yeah, I'm good, Doing OK. Good, glad to hear it. OK, so they'll be monitoring the action as we go along. Without further ado, let's crack on with the shootout. We've got 5 Lord Finesse tracks and five Diamond D tracks which are as follows. Lord Finesse Hip to the game, OCS go ahead Sigel MVP, the notorious BI GS suicidal thoughts and Lord Finesse featuring Crystal Johnson and REL the message.

That's the original version, the Lord Finesse 1, not the doctor Dre one off 2001. And on the Diamond D side we've got Diamond Phil the vibe from stunts, blunts and hip hop. The Alcoholics let it out so that ex Fat Joe and Diamond D stay away from the nasty hoes. That's good advice there most defs hip hop and finally the ITC's day one. What a line up. Are such. A great absolute bangers now, aren't they right? Without further ado, then, can you give me a number between 1:00 and 5:00, Steve, and we'll get this thing started?

Let's go #3. #3 that's big AL's MVP Larry between 6:00 and 1077 is the Alcoholics Let it out. This is a great start. OK, here's what those two sound like. The clown. That was on down the slate. I'm saying hi to all the duties from around the way.

OK. That's MVP versus let it out, Steve. MVP was your choice and you want to get us get us started on that one. Yeah, so this is the Lord Lord Finesse produced one from life says the point dangerous from from 95 and so that I think I love this track. We want us kind of analysing it for the for the podcast. It I think it's I think Finesse here produces a beat that really allows you to enjoy joy Big L because big out is this face. He's quite an aggressive rapper. You know, he just, he just wants to kind of like punch you around the ear with with all of his kind of like clever lyricism.

And I think I mentioned earlier that that Finesse was actually his mentor. Yeah, and you can hear each other's. You can hear it, can't you, In the. Styles yeah, but he's way he's way much better off than than than Finesse. And, and so, yeah, I just think this this beat just allows you to kind of like it's, it's a more kind of a gentle beat that allows you to not kind of get overwhelmed by too much kind of like boom bap, which I think is, is just pretty nice. And I think a lot of that's got to do with the sample.

It's a DeBarge sample, famously. So it's kind of smooth R&B and it kind of just takes the edges off it, yeah. Stay with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That yeah, that sample is just, it's just so, so soulful. Been used loads of times. Yeah, Tupac, I think. Tupac yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever it comes on, I always think of Tupac first of all, but and then yeah, and you and you, we can't like obviously this is about this, this podcast about finesse, but we can't ignore talking a bit more about about Big L who's who is obviously an MVP.

Yeah, he and we've probably said so many times it's just his flow, his character. He's he's, he's funny, he's gangster, he's he's kind of everything. But what I really noticed in this track, and I didn't write down any specific examples, but he has this ability to like stretch out syllables to make it fit into his kind of rhyme patterns without it sounding crap or corny like some rappers do. So next time you listen to it, just just distance that. I think it's a really good kind of feature of of his track.

So, So yeah, good, a good a good start for me. I think finesse would. Absolutely. Yeah. Great choice. Larry, what's your relationship with this one? Is this the 1 you would pick from Lifestyles of the Poor and Dangerous? Probably not. I I think it must have been the first Big L track I ever heard. I reckon it was like I've mentioned this so many times. There's like a funk master flex tape that I've got from any used to be old mass word that there was just one particular kind of week where it's it seems to be like the best week ever for hip hop releases and MVP was one of the tracks on it.

I just sort of loved it from day one. And again, like you say, it's all about that DeBarge sample. I, I mean, I don't, I'm not sort of massively familiar with the whole body of his work, but this seems like maybe a little bit kind of a, an atypical kind of sample for for him. I'd say I mean. It's quite, it's a straight up loop. He's not doing anything sort of especially clever with it. It's a bit of sort of delay, there's some effects on there and stuff, but it's a fairly straightforward chop. Yeah, I'd say a lot of his choices are more on the jazz side, where this is more R&B.

But in terms of how it's constructed, the B is very finesse. But I also think there's some good examples in this podcast of a variety of production to him as well. Yeah, because we've got, you know, the message and suicidal thoughts, which is completely different again. Yeah, it's a really good point actually. He's got. His sleigh bells on there on this one, of course, they're very they're very low in the mix, but they just they just fill out a little bit of space really nicely to a point where if they weren't in there it would just feel a little a little bit empty.

You don't really hear it, but you you would hear their absence and. I think that's another one of the characterising factors of, yeah, certainly finesse, but of the DITC kind of group, yeah, it's the sleigh, yeah. I would say with this one, no, it's not what I would pick from Big L's album and what the other finesse tracks. St Struck. That's about I would take that over MVP. It was close. It was hard to. I think also we wanted to put this in just because of the braggadocious nature of the of the time as.

Well, yeah, I think of the finesse tracks on this album, I think this is probably the right choice. I would have put St Struck on there, but I don't think that would have been quite as well received as I think as MP. I really love it, I really love the music on this, but I actually think for such a good MC, I don't think this is a particularly good lyrical performance from Big L compared to what he displays on the rest of the album and elsewhere. There's not, there's no kind of really clever word player or anything like that.

There's a couple of little sort of bits, but. It's kind of braggadocious moments, girls coming back to him like boom rings. I wonder if like machine Guns Kelly with a black Scully, leave rolling your belly, leave it smelly, then take your pelly pelly. That's like that's the best line on there I think. I would, yeah. I mean, that's probably a good point. But he's but the way he delivers it, even though it's not as his punchline, he is perhaps some of his other stuff so. Distinctive. He's still, he still kills it.

His voice is just perfect. Yeah, he's got his delivery. And then when he does the punch lines, it's it's fantastic. I think he's sort of like the he's. The crumb to the crumb of that thing. Exactly. And he's, I think he's influenced by finesse, who's kind of doing it before him, but he does it better. He doesn't takes it to the next level. Yeah, it's so, yeah, all the way through this, it's really. Really funny. I can't wait till we do. We've got we've got an episode lined up later in the run where we're going to talk about Devil's Son by Big, which is that also finesse?

Oh, I don't know, I think it might be. I think it's show. No, it's showbiz. Yeah. Showbiz, but that is just such a good track. But yeah, this one, I think the lyrics are they're fine, but not kind of what he's capable of. But I I still really like love the track. Yeah, yeah, me too. I like this one. So let's move over then to the other one. This the Alcoholics. Your choice. That it out, which was my choice. So I've got a funny relationship with Alcoholics. I I didn't have any of their other stuff.

This is the only album I own of theirs, the Coast to Coast album, which came out in 1995. And for me this was the absolute stand out on this album. It's it's yeah. Diamond D production, probably my favourite Diamond D beat. He's done and it's all about that Lalo Schifrin sample on it. I think it's it's fantastic. I looked it up, actually, it's from the end to the Dragon soundtrack that that sort of the twang and guitars on the sample is just fantastic and the drums and everything about it. I just I think this if I had to pick up my favourite Diamond D beat, this one might just be it.

But I thought you were. Going to say that. Yeah, but it's not just about the production, it's also about the Lyx themselves. They are massively underrated rappers. Like they haven't featured too much on this on this podcast, but when when you hear them, their voices are so distinct and their flow and like that interaction between them and the way they deliver stuff is pretty like Premier League. I I love. It they're quite a fun sound, yeah. A little bit beat Nutsy, I kind of think, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant comparison.

Yeah, just fun. Are they are they West Coast? West Coast, yeah, like a West Coast, West Coast. And they've got that. Yeah, obviously it's still in the name, isn't it? Alcoholics. They're going to be fun. The party stuff. The first album I think was a bit more kind of fun and yeah, you know, but. But this album, there's those are really good tracks on there, you know, there's. Some good tracks on liquidation as well. Right. Yeah, I haven't heard it. Yeah. It's. Good. Yeah, it's. Good, this isn't my favourite track on.

That is it not what's your one I? Love Next Level because I saw produced by Diamond. Yeah, that's my favourite one on there. I've got a funny thing because that one, it uses the same sample as he used on EDOG and the Bulldogs album Roxbury 02119 and so that's the best use of that sample for me. So when I heard that when I was like, I was a bit lazy using the same sample again. So I took the edge of it. However, it is still a really good beat and I do like it a lot, but for me it has had to be this one.

It's sort of so dynamic. It's a 5 out of fiver for me and yeah, really really love it the best. The best credit I can give give for this track is that the the beat is so good or the tracks so good that they hum along at the end. Yeah. And you don't often get the Yeah, you don't get that they are so into this. Yeah, Yeah. But no, even though, even though this isn't my favourite track, it's track that I love. It's it's like it's like an exciting track. It kind of like even gets like revved up. I don't know the best way to describe right at the beginning, before the kind of like, yeah, before it's before it starts.

It's a really urgent kind of intro with the yeah. It's just yeah. And and it's again, we not again, I think we haven't haven't kind of talked about. Yeah, this is a this is a New York rapper producing for the for for a West Coast group. It's sounding like you could be swift. It doesn't actually sound that completely out of place. It doesn't just doesn't really sound like too much like it's I. Think it's that kind of that guitar kind of twanging kind of almost Wild West kind of feel to the guitars and I don't know, but it's this is just a great track.

Anything to add before we? Not really. I think, I mean, I, I didn't know it up until today. Like the Alcoholics have like have kind of largely passed me by apart from a few bits here and there. And say Liquidation was the one album that I kind of did go back to. And there's a few tracks in there that I like. And I, I do get an impression that if I, if I familiarise myself with this album, I, I would like it. And I do like them and I think they're fun. I think this is a really kind of lively sounding track.

The beat is really nice and yeah, as I say, upbeat, lively. Fits their rapping style really well. And yeah, I think I rate it higher if I was familiar with it. Yeah, absolutely, definitely. There is a Mad Lib produced track on this album as well. I don't know. Yeah, W Lips, the first track, yeah, I don't like it, but it's Yeah, I thought you might like that one. Of course. Should we do it then vote on this? Jeez, it's. Going to be so hard through the whole podcast. I know because they're quite close, but I'll go first just to set the scene.

I'm going for the Alcoholics. I know that might be kind of sacrilege to some people, but I just think the Alcoholics track is so much better than MVP. So because I've given it 5 and I've given MVP 4 out of five, so the Alcoholics get my vote. Barry, I'm going for MVP, definitely just yeah. I just think it's better and I'm more familiar with it, but I also think it's better. Absolutely. So a lovely bit of jeopardy there. We've got Steve as the casting vote. I don't know, I don't know. That's not good enough, I'm afraid.

Which one would I rather listen to? I'm going to choose, even though I chose MVP, I'm going to choose that out because I do really like that track. Lovely. OK, so. It's it's a classic. That's one nil to the Alcoholics. They've done that weird run up thing on the penalty spot, sort of staggered the run stuck in the bottom left hand corner. So that's one nil to the Alcoholics, to Diamond D. Let's give him one of these back of the net and move on to match #2 Give me another number between 1:00 and 5:00, Steve.

2 please. 2 is go ahead by OC against another number, Larry. 10 is day one by DITC. So let's go ahead by by OC versus day one. Let's have a listen to both of those. I guess not. So you step along with a knife? I thought you was my wife. You know, it was stress in my life. Escalation Point Quotation comma lay up all the beaches when I'm down in the Bahamas. The skills go back through the days of wonder. Rama so packed this comma son. It's time to get this money so we can relax and recline. Do another great match up there, yes.

So we're starting with Go Ahead by the OC of the album Word Life. Gotta be your choice. This was my choice, Yeah. I think, like I said with the Diamond D beat, this might be my favourite finesse beat. It is just everything, encapsulates everything I love about Lord Finesse. It's from the the drums which have that amazing drum fill, maybe every other bar or something. Great drums that kind of I don't think there are actually sleigh bells in it, but it kind of it feels like there are in the background and it just kind of it just moves this track.

It's like the classic atypical finesse production and the horns obviously all the way through it are just fantastic. I mean, you know, talk about somebody master of his craft at horns. Pete Rock is kind of like the horn master and if you know, it's obviously levelled neck and neck with finesse because it's. Just fantastic. So jazzy. So jazzy and and then on top of all that, this this incredible beat, you've got OC who is, you know, still weirdly underrated. He doesn't get the flowers of a Nas or a Biggie, but he really is just one of the best sort of rapper lyricists out there.

He's a rapper's rapper. He's a rapper's rapper. Absolutely. And, and here he is talking about Lady Troubles, which is, you know, always a rich vein for a rap, rap lyrics. So it's just all the ingredients of a track that I absolutely love. Ever since I bought this for the first time. I got it in 94, I think it was purchased on one of our London trips, this album. And I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with this entire album, to be honest with you. I think it's an absolute masterpiece. It's classic.

Yeah, and I'd actually like to dig into the album a bit more, maybe in the future on a dedicated episode. But for me, this this is just hip the Best Hip Hop and I love it. I mean, maybe it not might not be the best track on word life, but it's certainly a really good. Production, it's a really stand out track definitely, and we know you just kind of lead to the rappers like talking about their kind of conquest. But in this track, he managed to just like expose a bit of kind of vulnerability with with the kind of the outcome of the story, but still remaining a little bit kind of like roaring gangster.

I just love the way he plays it out. It's just so, so clever. And like, even like introducing Fran in the first verse and going back to her at the end, It's just, it's just brilliant. Masterful storytelling. Masterful. Yeah, really good. Larry, what are your thoughts on this one? It's actually one of my less favourite tracks from the album. I think the beat is just pretty average for me. Clive compared to a lot of Come on. That's worth it. That's bang out of order just compared to some of the other tracks on the album.

It's, it's that, it's that part of the album where it starts to dip for me after that brilliant run up until about the midway point. And this is sort of the last good one, I think maybe. Can I just shock you? I kind of agree with you. There are a couple. What's the one up? Police Constables. Constables don't like, don't like that one. And but I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't loop. I wouldn't go ahead in with that. But I know where you're coming from because I know you're a massive fan of the Wild productions on this.

And a lot of those are towards the front of the album, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I just think, yeah, it's not bad by any means. It's musically always felt. Sounds like a bit of a downer to me. Hasn't got like a great. I don't like the vibe of it. It's a bit sort of down, but I mean, it fits the subject matter quite well. Yeah, I find it quite funny, sort of, and atypical of a rapper to be. He admits to sobbing and blubbering. Yeah, yeah. Which is quite, you know, quite unusual. Yeah. Definitely.

But then he also seems to think that the only possible reason that someone might cheat on him is that they've got a bigger knob, right? Which again, is quite funny, but in a daft way. And then it gets a little bit sort of homophobic at the end with subtly, not kind of outwardly, but you know, it is if you kind of, you know, listen to the lyrics really. Well, it doesn't. It's all like beating her. Up as well, yeah, I mean, lots of stuff, but we don't condone that hill this podcast at all. Yeah. And you know, it's, you're never going to find a rapper from this area that doesn't sort of say stuff like that.

No. Yeah. So yeah, Judge, judge it sort of by the time or whatever. But no, it's kind of, it's, I think the track's kind of all right, but I'm not mad. Surprised me though. Yeah, I. Thought you liked this one? Let's see what Kevin Keegan thinks about that opinion, shall we? I've kept really quiet, but I'll tell you something, he went down in my estimation when he said. That yeah, I think I think I agree with you to be honest with you. All right, well, let's move on to the other one then, which was day one by D ITC.

And this was nominally my choice, but I think it was like that the the 10th spot where we didn't have anything. So I kind of threw it in there, but after I did that, it dawned on me that this is this really should have been in in it from the very start exactly because it's like it's an All Star lineup. It's got all of, well, most of them on there. It's the crew cut. Yeah, it's like the hip hop Avengers coming together. It's like they're all on it. Yeah, on a Diamond DB. Yeah. And it, it had to be on there kind of representing this, what this whole podcast episode is about.

So. Yeah. So I'm glad it's on there. Yeah, this is right on my street. It's it's kind of like a perfect marriage of beats and rhymes. Everybody sort of slots into it really, really well. Yeah, but weirdly it's it was from 2000 I think it came. Out so they did it earlier they recorded this in 97 but yeah it wasn't released until 2000 because they there's a lot of stuff they just did over time right because they're not they weren't really like a like a necessarily a group but they just kind of used to come together they.

Put all this together, but there's some great stuff on on the album. The DITC Brand album because of it Thick is quite good. Champagne thoughts are my favourite on there. Yeah, some great stuff on there and I, this is one of the ones I this, I was another one of our Met albums, Friend of the show. I bootlegged it off him. But I just think everyone kills it on this. They're really, really good. I think it's from start to finish. I wanted to ask you both who you think has the best verse on this as well.

Finesse 100%. Really. Yeah. I love finesse verse on interesting, interesting diamond. This is diamonds track but I think finesse got the best verse. Right. Yeah, I had Big L because he kind of just a little bit sort of. He always pans out, doesn't he? He does. Like he's always going to kind of do that. But yeah, no, I'm going to. I'm sticking with finesse. Yeah, I think he I had both of them sort of. Yeah. And as my favourites. Nice. And then I have to say a word about the sample as well On the Hill by Oliver Sane, which I've got the original of it.

It's just a really cool jazz tune. And, and Can you imagine finding that as a as a sample to loop up when it's very simple, It's just a loop and they might have added drums or whatever, but it's just such a great, Yep, great example of hip hop. So yeah, I really like this and I'm glad we included it. Larry, what's your sort of thoughts on it? Again, sorry to be a downer, but I came across it independently actually in my research recently. And I do. I do sort of quite like it, but it's a little, it's a bit too repetitive, just that basic loop.

It's a bit subdued for a posse cut. I like my posse cuts to be a bit more hyped up like scenario being like the the kind of keystone sort of example. All the rappers you know, make a decent enough fist of it, but there's no sort of stand out lines from it. I don't think when you've got such a kind of rogues gallery of like incredible rappers, you'd think it'd just be a bit more memorable. But it nothing sort of really stands out to me about sort of what they're saying. Can you? Please. You're wrong, and you're a grotesquely ugly.

Freak, but east of their own. That's fair enough. But yeah, no, it is. It is a nice, it's a nice little. It's a nice sample, Yeah. I just think it's the beak could just do a little bit more. It sounds like a kind of, it's the whole thing sounds like a freestyle cypher, which is fine, yeah. But I would, I just would expect them to bring there a bit more of a sort of a game. That's a really good point actually. It does have the feeling of a like. A raid like some stretch and Bob kind of, yeah. They throw it on a loop or they throw it on an instrumental, and they've all just stepped up in turn to do it.

And it's only that hook that kind of gives it the feel. It's a natural song. Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. I just. I just happen to love it, but that's fair enough. Yeah. All right. Well, should we vote then? This is go ahead by. Is it? Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Versus day one, So right, OK, well, they're both 5 out of five for me. So this is really difficult, but I'm going to go for OC personally because I just, this means a lot more to me, Larry. I have, I've rated day one is slightly higher but I'm actually going to go for OC.

OK, so that's a 2 nil. Yeah, me too. Go ahead. Just the one the winner for me. It's a three nil win and that makes it. 1010 close. This is a close one, OK? And Lord Finesse gets one of these back of the net. So we're going to move on now to match 3. Steve, let's have a different number. One please. One that's hit to the game by Lord Finesse from the album The Awakening, Larry. 8. 8 is so that Ex Fat Joe and Diamond D stay away from the nasty hoes. Let's have a listen. Rappers frequently I'm like Stevie Wonder.

I can't see your brother B and me. Wanna throw joint You get spanked fella. Wanna talk? Go. I'm seeing more cash in the bank. Teller Wanna talk Girls you can't follow. Good loving, Good loving. OK, Hip to the Game is again my choice. This is weird on this one. I never had this album in 1996, I only got it recently, but for some reason I knew I knew this song and loved it. For me, it's kind of like the best track on the on that album. This is from the Awakening. From The Awakening, which is a weird album.

There's some good stuff on there, but there are just too many skits. It's unlistenable. Every other track is a skit, so it's probably, you know, it's not a very good listening experience, but the, the songs that are on there are pretty good. So I knew this one. But again, like I was saying earlier, this is a, this is a really good example of a track that where finesse takes a single sample, whether it's a chord or a note or something, and he pitches it up and down to create a kind of sort of symmetrical melody with the, you know, where, where, where it falls.

And it's really, really great example of that, you know, just finding that chord and just moving it up and down. I think it's really quite clever, a clever technique. I put this in there. The way he plays with the samples in this is just brilliant really. Good classic. It's kind of really inspirational technique. I tried it. One of the stings which I play a lot on this podcast, just moving that chord up and down just to make a new melody is just, I kind of circumvents a lot of the copyright stuff as well because you can.

It's not recognisable, perhaps as a sample. But those chords also I saw with the baseline on this track as well. It's just, it fits together so well. Yeah, yeah, it's nicely constructed, great hook. I think it's memorable. And this was obviously not a no brainer as a single. It's got that kind of single feel to it. I can you know this, this jumps right out. The drums are great again is another example of his really good drum chops. And then it's, it's rhyme wise, it's the typical finesse performance, punch lines and all that.

But I think a lot of the times it's something that I've noticed about finesse. Although the punch lines and jokes are good, they are, they often feel a little bit laboured, like you can hear them coming. So you see, you can hear them set up, Telegraph, Telegraph them. You can hear them set up from the line before. And then when he delivers them, it's like, Oh yeah, OK. It's like the one about. I've got more skins than the average dermatologist and you can tell we had to insert the word average in there to make it fit.

You know, you can kind of see see through his techniques sometimes. I think it does feel a little bit laboured sometimes, but. I thought the same. I think, yeah, this track really shows you can rap. Yeah, and he's known for punch lines, but there's lots in here. Probably just too too many. Yeah, Yeah, you can. It would. Probably sound better. If this was like early 90s, we'd be like, Oh yeah, this is really clever. Yeah, he's kind of setting them up to knock them, knock them out. But apart from that, I think I I really like this one.

So yeah, it's really good. Larry, let's come to you next. Yeah, this is not, I'm not kind of massively into this. I didn't know it before kind of doing this. I think the drums are nice, simple but crisp sample kind of get what I didn't really sort of pick up on what he was doing, but it was kind of, it's nice. But I kind of get the impression it's kind of in that he could do sort of standing on his head a little bit as well. And yeah, I think it's all with just going back to what you're saying about the punch lines and whatnot.

I think, yeah, 1996 is a bit too late to be sort of making a like a Stevie Wonder. Like you can't see me kind of. I do like, I do like the dermatologist line, though. Yeah, it's, it's all right. It's fine. Yeah, fair enough. So Steve, is this one you you're a big fan of or? Well, you know, I think you've you've summed up really nicely. Yeah, I do like this track. This it's funky beat and I could agree with you the great use of the samples and and his rapping. So yeah, it's I think it's it's I think it's generally quite a well known track.

I think it is surprised you didn't. Yeah, I don't know. It was well known for me to have heard it or be familiar with it over the years. It's a. Little bit kind of catchy again, it shows finesse is kind of like he can produce slightly different styles within his own like template. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's move over to the other one then. Larry might be a bit more into this one. This is your choice, Larry. Stay away from the nasty hoes from the. Americans Dying Slowly compilation This must how?

How many times is this? Is that album featured up now Well. I think we too. Many times. Yeah, too many times I I have got all the Copti tracks actually. But we've we've talked about what I represent by OCR. Yeah, it's. Brilliant America by Wu Tang Wu Tang Clan. We've we've delved into I'm. Sure, it's at least another one, but yeah, this is another one of the kind of stand out. But it's kind of like one of hip hop's weirdest compilations, isn't it? It's like a really strange curio. Anyway, go on.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's a really nice beat. It samples are cool in the gang track with this like Thunder Thunder roads breakdown with a with a with a sort of really intense like vibrato or sort of tremolo kind of sound. Yeah, yeah, it's panning between the. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I I think, I think it's actually technically a tremolo, but on the roads it's labelled as vibrato, right. But yeah, it sort of pans it and plays with a volume. But I think, I think he must have done, I think he must have chopped it up and done something with it because like listening to this original last night, it's not quite as on the grid as kind of it sounds here.

It's almost like he's, for anyone familiar with more modern production techniques, it's almost like he's warped it in Ableton to kind of put the bits on the grid. But obviously that technique wasn't available back then. So he's obviously done some a bit of clever sort of manipulation to get it to fit with the drums. And yeah, it's got a great performance by Sadat XI. Don't sort of know enough of his stuff, but I always love it when he pops up. He's got a great voice. Great voice and really sort of idiosyncratic style, isn't it?

It's a really melodic voice, similar to Graham Poober in a way, and obviously they were kind of in Brand Nubian. Together. He he doesn't do it by the book, does he either? No, he, he, he's not going to be constrained by the usual rules of when hip hop rhyming, though. He will just go off, say what he wants to say in the way that he wants to. And like you've got, you've got a great voice, one of these sort of, it's not quite a nasal, but it's in that upper sort of. Register Yeah, whenever I hear I. I love it.

He's a hospital Porter now. He works in a hospital so that ex. You are Jake. No, no, he's quit. The one of his quit completely. He still does stuff, but he actually works in a hospital. Really. Yeah, Yeah. For just for like, because he's just just a. Job he just, I think he he had to do it maybe fell on a little bit hard times or something. I don't know what it was, but yeah. He never, I mean, he never, he was never like a superstar. Never. Was he? No. And he had the Wild Cowboys album, which I think we've talked about in places, which has a lot of Diamond D or a couple of Diamond D productions on it.

Didn't make, didn't make our list, but. Him and Diamond D, we've been doing stuff for forever. He appears on stunts, blunts and hit on the hip hop. Yeah, yeah. So. But I really like that. And then the Fat Joe versus brilliant as well hit where he kind of tells this tale of someone infecting him with AIDS like on purpose. And then at the end of the verse he says, I ain't really got AIDS. It's just a mother fucking record. I've really I've got that down as well. Just love the fact he's confirming that he doesn't have it.

Yeah, any ladies. But it's it's like just this album, like you said, it's a bit of a curio and it come it came at a time where it must have been like from about 96, I think 97. 96, yeah. Where it's a great, like the whole thing is about, you know, AIDS and had like safe sex and all that kind of stuff. It's really progressive for like a rapper for rappers to be like to be kind of pursuing this message of safe sex. But then he's all they're also doing it by saying, like, the way to avoid it is by staying away from like dirty women.

Yeah. Yeah. That's all their fault. It's not not us. It's classic misogyny. Try like trying to do the right thing by spreading this kind of really positive message but in the completely sort of wrong way. Just blames them to the point where we know one of them is maliciously infecting him with AIDS and. His first is absolutely filthy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely disgusting. Yeah. And they also like just to kind of muddying the waters with the safe sex message. But I think he seems to claim that you can catch AIDS by like via oral sex, right?

Which I think is like technically possible, but like highly implausible that it would happen so. Yeah, all the research. Yeah. Maybe he knows better. Who knows? Yeah, yeah. Great job by Fat Joe there. But yeah, so I think in production wise I like this, like the beat and the snares and stuff and that rose loop is quite nice. But I think ultimately it's a bit, I find it a bit dull, right? It's not one of my favourite soft. I think for me it's it's more about the the kind of lyrics. On this, yeah, I think lyrically it's very interesting and there's it's really, which is, which is a bit of a light relief on this album about a very serious subject.

Let's not forget that. Steve, what are your thoughts on this dumb age in general? Well, yeah, it's hard to take it seriously, isn't it, coming from rappers? So yeah, like Larry said, this is really curious album one that when when I bought it was like, this is going to be great. It's star-studded. It's absolutely ridiculous. And then it it is definitely one of the the biggest let downs I've ever kind of bought in my life. And I just I just can't get with it. And this, this track in particular is, is just one of them.

I just find it too slow and too, too boring. I just, it's just, I, I don't put this album on anymore. I, I, I would definitely skip this track. So I'm really sorry This is this just isn't it just isn't, isn't for me. This one. Just being in the interests of ballots, I knew I was. Going to get one of these bang. Out of order? That's bang out of order. Two of them. Two of while we were talking over the first one, so I just want to make sure we're a bit Harry Redknapp as well. Absolute load of nonsense.

There we go. So yeah, I totally but no, I don't disagree with though, Steve I as I said, it's for me it's a bit dull and also that the compilation apart from like America, what I represent a lot of the tracks from the big name producers on it like you Pete rocks like your large professors, yeah, beat miners. They lost. They're actually quite dull. There's a lot of the tracks on this album. I find them but. I think they're just pitting them up on the cutting room floor and just thought they'd do.

Particularly the Pete Rock and the Lost Boys track The Year and I Oh. Yeah. It's kind of. It's all right, but it's not the Pete Rock that I love. It's a bit dry. Anyway I. Think it's quite. I like that as AP rock beat. I think, yeah, it's as good as anything really. It's just not quite. It's not really jazzy enough for me anyway. Let's vote on this one then, shall we? So it's hip to the game versus stay away from the nasty hose. Steve, you go first this time. Well, I'm going to obviously say hip to the game.

I think it's a absolutely great track. So that's one for hip to the game, Larry Nasty host, Nasty host. That's one also. Yeah, hip to the game is my choice. So I'm going to go Hip to the game by Lord Finesse. So that's another win, another one corner for Lord Finesse, and he gets one of these. And weirdly, we've agreed on every single track. I'm sure that won't continue, but we'll we'll. See that as well? Let's give that. That'll be very rare as. Well, your, your daughter will be happy, won't she?

Because. Normally we're at finally. Walker heads. Yeah, jinx that now, I reckon. Yeah, the next one. People will clash over the next one. All right, give me. #4 please. #4 is suicidal thought by The Notorious B.I.G Larry 66. Is field the vibe by Diamond? This is a Steven Hitchcock 12

Battle of the Hitchcock. Let's see what the Let's hear what these sound like. Hang in my head. No sleeping all day, no giving my Dick lick hanging with the goodies. Goodies lounge in the paradise. Fuck that shit. I want to talk guns and shoot. All my life I've been considered. Took a dive because you couldn't feel a vibe. Is this the vibe you desire? Is this the vibe you desire? Well let me continue with what's on the menu. I dug in the great outside. I don't know if it's a conscious thing but I seem to pick the bit where they're talking about sex and filthy sex wise.

Subconscious. Definitely. God. There could be more of a juxtaposition here. Could. They really could, too. So yeah, well, the floor's yours, Steve. Let's go. All right, let's start with suicidal thoughts. So this from Ready to Die in 1994, and I picked it because because I love it. I don't think I properly knew this was a Lord Finesse precise track until researching for this for this podcast where I kind of hadn't really kind of sat with me. I think just quickly, I think I was the same, yeah, in that era.

I just didn't come to know it was him later. But like in retrospect, you can see that he was obviously a sought after producer to to go on like a big album like this and it would have kind of elevated his his status kind of after that. So I'm going to start talking about the the the rhyme from big first of all, because because I think it's it's a really deep subject matter that he's talking about. It's quite like, I don't know, introspect to a personal. But he's make he's still able to make it sound like it's hardcore and harrowing.

Yeah. And, and I think that's like what makes it interesting about why Lord Finesse has produced this track, because it's just so different from his normal production style. It's kind of darker and more sparse, but I really like how he brings the kind of drums in and out of the of Biggie's rhyming. So it allows that that, you know, the subject matter to kind of really kind of cut, cut through. And there's just some, there's so many iconic lyrics in this track, you know, and, and particularly I think at the end where, you know, kind of drops the phone and he's dead.

It's, it's, it's a track that really is, I don't know. I think it's one of his most like, poetic tracks from the Biggie catalogue. Yeah. So yeah, it's, I don't know, just I just really like it. Yeah, I think it's like you say, it's quite a dramatic track and it really completes the album's narrative arc. It really completes it and it's a really great way to end the album. It kind of, you know, shows that because obviously he's born. It's born at the start and it dies at the end, and then it leads into life after death, which is the next album.

I think just narratively it's perfect. Yeah, do you know I forgot about that? Yeah, I don't. It's not one of my favourites on the album. I don't. I mean, I wouldn't say it's I. Wouldn't say. I wouldn't say. No Finesse beats or beats on this album, but I do. It works really well and I think it's a great addition to the album. And it's that dark, brooding beat really kind of fits. It's the perfect musical representation of the subject matter. It's great and I think Finesse has really killed it. I don't know whether it was Finesse produced it to spec or.

Whether I was gonna say exactly the same thing, I'd love to know that, yeah. They're probably that story probably is out there, but but however it happened really, really great way to end the album and and the perfect kind of. The only thing that's annoying, and this is my, my yeah, my perennial moan is him. Yeah, just pretending he's on the phone. He's just just cut that out please because someone can use AI to get rid of it. I don't know, I disagree with that because I think that's one of the kind of it like Puffy is annoying, obviously, and I wish it was just like, I don't know, Mace or yeah.

Anybody. Anyone else? But what I quite like about it as a kind of as a narrative tool is that it's kind of, there are two people speaking on it. Yeah. But Biggie isn't hearing a word he says. Like, he's just completely, he's made-up his mind what he's gonna do. He's just, he's just kind of spilling his guts before he does it. Yeah. And there's nothing that anyone can say. He's just phoned up to announce it. He's not taking any of it. And I think that's, I think that's actually a really good little production.

I mean, yeah, kind of somebody needed to be on the other end of the line. Yeah, I think his. Yeah, maybe he, yeah, maybe he's, maybe he speaks a little bit too much, but I can almost just completely ignore it and just hone in on what Biggie's saying. Also it makes sense because they were so close. Yeah, yeah, he would be somebody him exactly that you would phone and say that. But yeah, apart from that, I just musically, I agree that it's just a perfect match of subject matter to music. It's one of the just one of the darkest beats you'll ever hear.

So it's a Miles Davis sample from the Big Fun album, which is an album I really like actually. He does something. He does something a bit more than just sort of loop it up. He's like sort of uses philtres and stuff to kind of make it his own and then the drum break goes absolutely perfectly. It does with it great drums, I will give it that. It's one of those. Do you know what it is? I think it's isn't it outside love by brethren, it. Is yeah, very good, one of those. Yeah. I didn't know that until kind of looking it up.

I hadn't sort of heard of that, but it's it's one of those breaks that's being used by absolutely everyone. I'd say in the hundreds I reckon. Yeah, it had a really, really long list. Like the most kind of notable 1 is electric relaxation, of course, But they sound, but they sound completely different, like electric relaxation. It's kind of pitched up a little bit. Yeah, and snappier on this. It's just a pretty straight kind of take of it. And funny enough, finesse you like use those. There's a track on that SP12 album he did called something.

Electric, right? Oh, it's the one in the video we watched the other day. And he uses those drums, the outside love drum. He loves them. He loves those drums. Yeah, but I love it. And I think that the bit of the like, yeah, it's a great way to end the album and the whole narrative arc of it. That bit where you sort of the gunshot and when he sort of just goes down like a sack of spuds and the heart beating it all, it's really like it really kind of does get you. Yeah, as soon as he starts saying she know me and her sister got something going on, Yeah, I reached my peak.

I was sort of wondering actually, like, how atypical would this have been? Like when this came out, was this like a unique sort of subject matter for a rap? Had someone been someone kind of said something quite this well? I mean you had 1800 suicide by the grave diggers. I think the suicide suicide stuff as. Well. Mental health stuff, I guess, with the ghetto Boys. Yeah, yeah, mind playing tricks on me and stuff, but and also like the actual beat itself. But there are many others already downbeat, kind of miserable sounding beats like this almost to me sounds like it belongs.

Like I could hear it like on a company early, like company flow. Track or something? Good shout, yeah. Like, last good sleep, that kind of thing. It's just, it's really bleak. It's. Really backpacky. Kind of. His his maturation as a producer at this point, I think is is is is really obvious, just brilliant. Right. And also with, with Biggie, like, I don't, you know, I don't sort of believe that he was suicidal. I think it's just a kind of. Thing. That he's talking about. But on but on the on the album you have got sort of three tracks where he talks about death.

Obviously the whole thing's called Ready to Die, but on the track, like Ready to Die, he's kind of talking about I, you know, I'm just, I'm out here on the streets doing what I've got to do and if I die, doing it. That's. Just part of it. But then he's also got everyday struggle where he says I don't want to live no MO. Yeah, sometimes I hear death knocking out my front though. Yeah, and you're trying to tell us something exactly. Sort of. Tell it and then later on it kind of he actually acts that kind of go acts that out.

So yeah, it's like there's obviously something going on in his kind of mind where? He is kind of like. You don't sort of talk about those kind of things if you just, you know, completely. But it is a rich kind of dramatic scene to tap into, and he's a storyteller and he's about the drama. He's a next level rapper, isn't he? A top? Top of again? His brain must have been a thinker. Genius level thinker, yeah. Absolutely. Well, let's move on then to Part 2 of the Steve Showdown, which is Field of Vibe by Diamond and the Psychotic Neurotics.

So what? What prompted this choice, Steve? Yeah, what possessed me to choose this one? So it's because. So first of all, I love this album. Stunts, blunts, hippos. This is this is a 92 album. And this track features showbiz on it as well. And the album has so many underrated classics, which are kind of already mentioned already. But this is I think this is where it kind of really starts for for Diamond D and the and the DITC crew on this album, you get a lot of Fat Joe, a lot of Sadat X. So I'm pretty sure I bought this at uni or maybe just just around that kind of time.

And it's been on heavy rotation ever ever since. And I just love it's it's it's it's like that. It's that straightforward early 90s sound that I like more than more than you 2 because it gets your head nodding with that kind of like that, that boom bap influence and then those like simple samples. Is that really like jazzy sax? I think must be like a harp or something. I don't know. I can't. I don't know what it is. You too. I'll tell you what it is in a minute if you want you. Probably know the sample, but again it speaks to that ability.

Just dig in those crates. I know one. I know it's it's bad tune, but it's been in fire. Yeah, fire. And I listen to the. Same sample was used on ACT UP by. I'll breed. I'll. Breed off the D&D project, another of our favourite weird compilations on this podcast. Yeah. But it's just a good good like that ear to go and find that and think I can just just use that and. That's sax solo sax sample in there as well. It's quite nice. I've been, I listen to it this morning. I've been having that sax sample all day.

It's quite because if you think about, I think it's a blueprint for so many hip hop sounds like it's like that combo of great drums, the jazzy sax and that hypnotic tune in the background. Yeah, it's just a blueprint. It's very simple. Juices. Construction. So it's got the drums, which are it's all about the for me, it's all about the samples on this one. You've got the drums, which is a classic, like shades of brown break that's been used on loads of stuff. I think it's Yeah, it's been amused a million times, just like the outside love ones.

You've got the brother Jack Macduff sax song, which is really catchy. You've got the bad tune sample. And then also they throw in a sample of De La Soul. Like they actually sample a De La Soul fanatic of the B word, like De La Soul, which you can hear when it drops out later on, the sort of chanting sample later on. I just think it's all really nicely. I'm not going to say I love this, love this track. No, no, no, but you. But I just appreciate it. All the samples come in together and sort of find in their place.

And I think Diamond flows nicely on it. It's like you say, it's a very old school flow and it's like kind of old school sound. But that this, this album very much is is that, you know, it's 92. And like Day in a Life is a is a classic, like nice little storytelling track. Yeah, there's some really good stuff on there. I recommend people would listen to it. I think maybe because of all those samples being unclear just why you can't get. That's the other thing that interests me about it is the sample clearance, because like on the line of notes I was looking at the the the Brother Jack Mcduff sample is clear and it's listed in the notes, but they don't mention the bad tune sample, which like the whole clearance thing is a bit of a mystery.

Maybe it was they considered it too obscure. Maybe it was it was a deal they had. I don't know. But but yeah, that will interested me. But yeah, I do quite like it. It wouldn't be my choice off the album. I think the one I would have chosen, Sally, got a one track Mine, which is one of the three Cop tied Diamond D tracks alongside Flojo by Fat Joe and Soul Clap by Sugars and AG. So it wouldn't be my choice, but I do. I kind kind of like it. Best Kept Secret might have been the other one, but yeah, it's not that good ones.

What your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I'd never heard this one before and I think the wrapping is fine and I love those like chunky, really nice chunky drums. But the rest of it I I have to completely disagree with what you said. I think it's a complete dog's breakfast of a track like sample wise so obviously. You get a thing for that. Well, it's just on behalf of Steve, but yeah, that's. Bang out of all. So as you mentioned, it uses that same sample as beat. Mine is used for ACT UP, I'll Breed, but it only uses like the first bar of that two bar kind of phrase and it just loses something by not by this is like a resolution by not having that second bet on it.

And As for the kind of sax kind of bit that just comes in separately to that, but it's like he's just sort of welded these two things together that I don't think go like the actual sax sample. Just in it. It sounds like it's out of tune with itself. I don't like that. I don't think it's a catchy bit of music. I just think it. I think I just don't like it at all. How? How funny that we have such. Different. I know it's weird. Like you and me especially are normally very In Sync over this kind of thing.

I've got a question for you about this. Yeah. When you were listening to this track, do you think like this is a classic Steve track? Oh, it's I definitely thought it was a Steve track and I thought Danny would agree with me about it. Just I just, I just don't see how those two samples sort of go together. I'm. Just going to clarify. Yeah, I'm, I'm not necessarily. I think they all go together brilliantly. Yeah. What I'm saying, I was more interested in the samples that he's used. Yeah, like that, the selection of them and sort of the use of them.

It's one of those tracks that sounds like it's lacking A baseline as well, yeah. Yeah, like a lot of. Something in the lower kind of register, Yeah. It's just not a track for me at all. Really. I mean, I only gave it three out of five, but it's not what I loved. And it's a it's very much a Steve track. Yeah, but I just got a bit into the rabbit hole of the samples and I was just more interested. In, but they just seem, they seem mismatched and in even independently, I don't think they've been used particularly well.

Yeah. It does. Almost painful for me to listen to. It's one of those sort of just. Yeah. Incongruent. It sounds incongruent. I love it. Steve of it. Just quickly while we're on it, who do you think is the better rapper between Diamond and Finesse? Finesse for me. I don't think I've thought about considered it. I think that's just so much more distinct, sounding like diamonds. They're very similar. Yeah, I'd have to go finesse, probably because there's more. He's got more of a he is more thinking like he's.

Recognised like Diamond like I could. I personally couldn't really pick out his voice out of a lineup. But I do like it when Diamond D hops onto a track. Yeah. Do I like hearing his voice? When you hear him and you know it's him, I think. He goes first on day one, doesn't he? Does he go first day one? He does, he does. And I think he, he, I think his first on day one's really good. Actually, I think Lord Finesse probably does does shade it actually as a rapper. That was just a little bit of a side.

OK, Are we ready to vote on that one then? Yep.

But let's start with you then. Larry. I think I know what you're gonna go for. But suicidal thoughts, yeah. Steve. I'm also not gonna go for that. I'm gonna go for fill the vibe because, and obviously I chose both of them, but I feel like a loyalty to feel the vibe because it's just when I bought the album and just that track being the stand up one that's just stuck in my head. You. Don't want to leave out on a limb, you know you've put it in this position. You need to show it some support. I do, I do.

It's not going on the bench. Well, sadly, I'm going to be consigning it to the the runners up medal because yeah, I'm going for a Notorious BIG. Even though I don't really love either of these tracks, I think it's the better of the two, so that's another one for finesse. What's the score? 31 to finesse so you can't lose now. So you can't lose. So Finesse has won. Yeah, OK, but stand up to the last one. We have to go through the motions in the last match. So let's give Finesse one of these back of the net and move on to the last match.

We know what they are, but just for the sake of fairness and FIFA has mandated that we have to draw the final 2 balls so they. Are #5 number. 5 which is Lord finesse the message. And #9. #9 which is hip hop by most def. Let's have a listen, not. The bombs, he can't harm me. Got that army. That's why I like Jumanji, Who like Gandhi. You know how I'm holding one of the few chosen that's out here? Still rolling, still flowing. Currently did I squint and catch his lips, Embrace the face with my dog ink fingertips, just like.

This extraordinarily, this is an all Larry battle. Yeah, this is to Larry's choices. Yeah. So, yeah, again, like Larry, the floor's yours. Let's start with Lord Finesse. OK, yeah, the message. So I just thought this would be an interesting one to to kind of have all definitely. I originally I had originally kind of chosen the message by Doctor Dre like Co produced Co produced by Lord Finesse. But then when I started kind of looking into it, I had no idea that Lord Finesse had actually produced this by him like as a has his own track like.

It's unreleased though, isn't it? Yeah, like back in 96, I think it was. He made this beat. And. And and obviously wrapped on it and had like 2 singers on there with a it's a bit of a kind of demo track because it's only got one verse and then it's got sort of singing after that. So you because they've. Been for like the awakening probably, and you might have made it for the awakening. Presumably, yeah, just making it for in that era and but yeah, obviously sort of not complete because it's just got one verse on it.

And then I don't know the exact story about how it ended up with Dre, like whether because obviously Dre works. This is from the from 2001, and I don't know if Finesse had been kind of roped in to help with production on it and then he just happened to play with it. I don't, yeah. I don't sort of know exactly how. It's on YouTube, have you seen it I. Haven't watched the? I've heard sort of him talking about it, but I haven't heard the exact. So I think he was in there in the studio, Yeah, They were trying to piss track something.

Then Doctor Dre went out to get a sandwich. That's it, That's it. He sort of heard it from the other room. He's like. I want that, yeah. But so, so before that, then Finet had obviously just been drafted in with like just as a producer, like what have you got? What can you give me? Obviously, like, you know, people like Mel Man and Scott Storch. A bit there as. Well, but yeah. And Finesse was one of these people and yeah, just he played this track. Dre heard it. And Dre like this is what's fascinating about it to me is like it is a, it's a really nice kind of beat to begin with.

Yeah, it's it's not a sample. It's like a it's a keyboard beat basically. Like I forget who it was, but it's someone called like Binky something. He's like a quite a famous keyboard player who's played with like loads of sort of big kind of, I know, maybe it'd been like kind of Michael Jackson sort of song. I don't know. He's that kind of person who's just like a background keyboard player, but he just had this kind of harp kind of sound on his Cork Triton or whatever. It was he. Was just playing around with it and Orphaness just said like go with that pairs it with this really nice simple beat and it's just a really nice relaxing kind of soothing melody.

And Dray on this track that he's used it for is speaking about because I'm, you know, I'm basically speaking about both these tracks. Although Dray does sort of add to it, doesn't it? Dray adds. To it. So basically like, yeah, so there are two things. One dray, yes, adds to the beat in a way that I think sort of detracts from it puts on these sort of quite cheap sounding keyboard sort of strings and stuff. He does cut you. You can hear that it's mixed properly as well, which is it sounds crisper and it's sort of drayify.

Yeah, I thought that. But I think the addition of like Mary J Blige doesn't really add anything. It just obviously kind of puts a known name on it for the single or whatever. Remarkable. But the the subject matter, he's Dre's talking about his dead brother Tyree. I think he's called.

And yeah, it just got me thinking about how like context is, is everything really for a a piece of music? Like if Finesse had just kept this for himself, put it on his album, it would be like a it would be like a decent or so ran kind of track. But because it's got it's all one of the biggest selling hip hop albums ever. Most loved. Hip hop albums ever. It is elevated by the fact that Doctor Dre is on it and he's talking about. It's like the most heartfelt kind of track on the album, A departure from the rest of the album sonically.

And that's why Lord Finesse isn't working in hospital right now. Yeah, well, he must be like to be. I did sort of, you know, I know you can never sort of trust these things properly, but I did sort of try like ChatGPT ING like how much Lord Finesse would have made from this. And it kind of reckons probably not all that much, maybe about sort of 800 to 1.2 mil, something like. That which? Is still kind of deep, that's still life changing amount of money, but you'd think it would be a lot more than that.

He gets like a lump sum to begin with. So that's what this explanation was, that he would have got like an upfront fee, maybe about like $50,000, something like that. Yeah. But he would also get like residual, like, points on it. Yeah. So every time it's streamed, he gets a little bit of that. But also as one of the main songwriters, he gets publishing from it as well. Yeah, but even despite it being like a really big sort of track and album, I think because it was made in the pre streaming era, I think he would have done a lot better on it now.

Yeah. Yeah, if he had kind of contributed something like that to to a massive album like that. But one thing I. He's done well out of it. Exactly. But one thing I would also say just on the Dre involvement in it, it's just so like, it's so Doctor Dre that even a track as heartfelt about the death of his brothers still Ghost written is still written by somebody else. It's written by Royce to 59, who we talked about sort of on last. Yeah. And for such a kind of heartfelt track, he doesn't actually sound like he's got an awful lot of emotion in his voice when he's kind of saying it.

No, I think he sounds almost like. Yeah, almost like he's kind of reading it off the page where yeah, he's angry. He does angry really well. Yeah. Yeah, but this just doesn't quite, it doesn't sort of match the kind of the magnitude of what he's. Known the mood. Of it. I think, I think I prefer the Lord Finesse version. I think, I think Lord Finesse probably sounds, yeah, I think slightly better on it, yeah. Because yeah. I prefer. I prefer his. Yeah, but it does suit Dre. It suits Dre's voice and it's, I think I'm not, I'm not familiar with the 2001 album.

I'm not the singles, obviously, I've never had it or anything but. It does. It fits. It fits nicely, but it is a tonal. The last, yeah, the last track there. And it caps it off really nice. I have. To say, I mean, you know, my tastes and stuff. I actually really like the big Yeah. I think it's really lovely. I think it's more it's more like an R&B tune. Yeah, in terms of its production, it does feel very and obviously the and B singers on the hook, but apparently. The instrumental of it is quite popular as well, just like sort of low fi beats to.

Study to you can imagine a YouTube elevator yeah it's really nice. It's very smooth and soulful. But yeah, I wouldn't even say it's Finesse's normal style. Like it's, it's like you say, it's keyboard. It's really, but it does, it does go to show that like in that kind of era of keyboard beats that would have been made, it shows you can still do something soulful with that style. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's lovely. And it sounds like like I'd have to be told that it was played as well. You just assume it was a hard sample, wouldn't you?

Yeah. So really. Yeah, really nicely done, really nicely played. So should we move onto the other track then, which was hip hop? Your other track, Larry Most. Sorry, I kind of monopolised that and. I I. I. Don't think either of you sort of really said if you had any other kind of. You covered it, sort of. You covered it really, really well. No, there was. Yeah, It's just a very nice, smooth, soulful. Yeah. So hip hop. And then hip hop. Yeah, most deaf. I think you and I would have both been really excited about this.

I mean, to be honest, like when the when the album came out, I wasn't kind of really into hip hop at the. 90. Nine, I was still sort of very much into sort of house music at the time. I actually, this is 1. I had a flatmate at the time who was into all of this stuff. This is when I lived in Manchester, a flatmate called Steve who had who had like this and Black Star and stuff. But I never bothered with it. I just thought, oh, it's not for me. But then about, you know, just a few a few months later and I sort of started getting back into hip hop again, which was actually due to common like water for chocolate.

Yeah. Because I was then just like, I remember how much I loved it and was just looking for the next big album all the time. And I went back to this one and it was just, it was my favourite album of that year. Retrospectively, I just listened to this all the time. Classic album, like iconic cover on it. Most def's face. Yes. And then the back of his head on the back of it, back on both sides. The album's called the first person I think in hip hop. And that's a mistake to sort of re appropriate the Run DMC logo for a, for a T-shirt, which much as we've done that much as we've done and which loads of other people have done, I think much as the first person to do, but.

It works well for most definitely works. Very well, the three letters, 3 * 3. But musically, I just like the beat absolutely wowed me at the time and I and I still love it. It's a really hyped up kind. It's like the second track of the album, the first sort of proper track and it's like the beat is really unique. It samples this David Axelrod track, which has like this musical phrase just sort of repeating through it throughout the track, but using but using slight in the origin. It uses sort of slightly different phrasing, slightly different arrangements and voicings with different instruments.

And Diamond D has done, he's done something with it where he just layers up various bits of yeah, yeah, yeah, and uses really clever filtering, yeah tricks like resonant philtres and stuff. It's a really full production, isn't it? It sounds very full, like whole spectrum, all of sound kind of thing. All of sound kind of thing. I just, I love it. I think it's, it's really kind of unique sounding and, and although it's kind of timeless, it still sounds great today. I can't imagine hearing it like any earlier than 1990, 99, but I can't imagine here.

I can't imagine this beat in the golden age. No, that's like you could like 99 thought this beat wouldn't have existed. You know what? It don't know why. It's the drums for me. I don't think those drums would be like that earlier than 99. They're very late. They're late 90s drums. But the song would have you would have heard. The, I hadn't really sort of thought about the drums. That's sort of secondary to the yeah. But yeah, you are right. It's the drums, yeah. And I love that sample. I think it's a great, great sample and it's a really exciting, dynamic track.

I didn't like it, obviously. Most def was a little bit after my yeah. I didn't have this album or anything but. He was such a force at this time. He was the star of this whole raucous backpack. He was like, I'm. Kind of the star of it. Aware of his standing and stuff. It's such a good. I always like what I hear. Every time he appears on this podcast, I like what I hear. But having said that, I was so looking for seven that I was actually quite disappointed because I think it's generally got. There's some real hits on there, some real misses as well.

And this when? You goes that yeah, it is a little bit bitty, the album, but greater than the sum of its parts, I think. And also, don't you think I think he is a really good rapper, Yeah. And he kind of looked like a metro directory to become a great and I don't think he has become that something that's stalled in his. Yeah. I think that's career. I think that's just having sort of there's a podcast that me and Danny sometimes listen to, which was what's what is it that you kind of linked me to the other day where they talk about the ecstatic making your matter.

Making your matter, yeah. So they talk about the question about Ecstatic, which is most deaths, like maybe fourth album or something like that. Yeah. Which is like a real return to full. And I love that album. It's probably pound for pound better than Black on both sides. I for me. Personally, Yeah. Yeah. But without the sort of highs maybe. And they were kind of talking about him that he sort of seems to be. I just don't think he's all that bothered by it because he he was always, he's like, he's just he's a creative, he's a rapper, but he's also into, he's a bit of like a proto like Kanye West.

And in fact, they're, they're kind of good friends, aren't they? They sort of yeah. Like they, they, they go back, like they go way back. So he's also sort of into like, fashion and acting. Try this. Guy Guy, he's just he's a bit of a force to be reckoned with and I just don't think he was really all that bothered. Like you can't even get like the ecstatic on streaming. I think you can even buy it really. It's not in print. I think it's like really expensive, rare, kind of. So yeah, he just sort of kind of sabotage, like not sabotage his own career, but I don't think he really wanted to be like a massive.

No, no. Superstar and I think I think probably his appeal is slightly limited to hardcore backpacky type of yeah. Yeah, definitely he. Can do it or he can rap. He can see. Yeah, he didn't kind of breakthrough. One thing we have mentioned as well is the subject matter of this track, which is obviously a cool kind of tribute to the music we love, why we're here, what we're doing here. And it's one of the many kind of, we love hip hop songs, yeah, that have been done across over the years, like LL Cool J and Common Sense and all.

Those but he also he's he kind of it's not all kind of rose tinted. No, he'll be like he says, like hip hop went from selling crack to smoking it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a very intellectual yeah version of the hip hop. We love the hip hop song, isn't it? So as as you'd. Expect we went from picking cotton to chain gang line chopping to people. Yeah, it's a good enough. Pin. Yeah. It's a great line, he's. Such a lyricist, yeah. All right, so well, let's well before we got more so. Just to wrap kind of wrap this up, I think both the message and hip hop, I think like just again like show how diverse their production styles can be and how often how skilled both of these producers are.

And I know like Lord Vanessa is already one, but they are both iconic legendary hip hop producers with with so much skills over many many years. Absolutely. Hear, hear. That's a great way to end this shootout. So let's vote. Let's start with you, Larry, because this was your choice. Yeah, tricky one actually, I forgot what the first one is. It was the message. The message I think I'm going to have to go for hip hop. It's just like, it's just such a dynamic, exciting sounding track. I think hypes me up to hear it to this day.

Steve. Yeah, definitely. That's a really good way of. It's definitely one of one of the most, most hyped tracks. Love it, Absolutely love it. Yeah, I think I'm going to make it a three nil actually. I think I prefer hip hop. I think it's a more kind of dynamic, engaging track all round really. Even I do really like the message and the smooth they're. Completely different ends of the spectrum, aren't they? And you would. Say that, you might think you might expect me to pick the message because it's more in my kind of Sonic palette, but I do actually prefer hip hop.

So that's a three nil win for Diamond D on that one. So what's the final? Well, let's just give Diamond D his flowers for that one. So Steve, what are the what are the scores on the doors then? So it's. So it's 32 to to Lord Finesse. He's just shaded it, which I think is was always going to be close to wasn't. It it was going to be close. Well done to the Lord Finesse. Congratulations, Lord Finesse got all rounds of applause there for that. And you also get this one. So we've established beyond any doubt that Lord Finesse is a better producer than Diamond D. Do you agree or disagree with that assessment?

Let us know what you think on X Instagram threads and Blue Sky. Just search at Hip Hop World Cup. Give us a follow and let us know you're out there. Also, subscribe and leave us nice five star reviews on whatever platform you listen to this on Spotify, Apple and don't forget to join our Patreon. The link's in the description. That's it. Thanks for listening and we'll see you for our next shoot out Peace.

Before we go, we have a little message from Ian Beale, EastEnders. Quite frankly, I'd like to get rid of the bleeding free of you.